Random Question Thread: Fuck it.

[macross]

I like to target <st>, then /item "cave cherax" <lastst>

[noodles355]

If you're gonna script it you may aswell use a bot. It's essentially the same thing: automating the trade process.

[Kohan]

Seriously lol. Something that is completely automated is botting regardless of the means to do so. Should have just straight up asked for a bot and been done with it, not like people are crucified for this anymore.

This is not true.

BG's official stance is still that botting is discouraged, and that discussion of bots is not allowed. If someone explicitly posts the name of a bot, and goes on to explain how to use it, update it, etc., that person will receive an infraction, if not a ban.

It's understood, of course, that a lot of people bot processes for testing (e.g., automating killing a certain mob 10,000 times). This goes without saying. However, posting that you're conducting a test and then providing your results is not the same as discussing and explaining how you automated the entire process.

In short: you can talk about what the bomb does, but you can't publicly tell people how to build (or find) the bomb. Do that, and you'll get in trouble.

[Darkmagi]

I'm confused by that, we have a thread detailing on where to get clipper and constant updates on it. I wasn't implying that someone would link to a bot in the thread, I figured people would know by now that stuff like that should be PMed. We also have a large thread dedicated to a windower replacement that will include such cheating devices, and hosted on a website that has many bots(and similar tools).

Is this seriously a thing? Not to mention that said scripting that people were suggesting above would do exactly what a bot would do for you. Is that not a form of botting? I was under the impression that the whole antibotting stances stemmed from ancient HNM days and hasn't been a concern for a long time.

[Kohan]

I'm confused by that, we have a thread detailing on where to get clipper and constant updates on it.

The distinction lies in the functionality. While Clipper allows the user to eliminate NPC collision, increase their movement speed, and so on, all of these functions must be activated by the user. Additionally, while they're being used, the user is still actively playing the game—Clipper automates nothing for them.

This is also why Windower is permitted. Although it has various functions that can be used to circumvent in-game measures (e.g., using fillmode to hide walls), and various plug-ins and scripts could be used to automate play, these things must be activated and/or implemented by the end-user. Windower itself is not an automation program, much as Clipper isn't, and ApRadar isn't, and so on, so forth.

Is that not a form of botting?

It is. However, I would prefer to inform people of potentially frowned-upon activities before punishing them, especially if they were not aware of the potential problem. In this case, it's also best to do so publicly, as I can understand where confusion would arise.

In summary: you can talk about what the bomb does, but you cannot tell people how to build (or find) the bomb. That will get you into trouble.

[Fereydoon]

\This is also why Windower is permitted. Although it has various functions that can be used to circumvent in-game measures (e.g., using fillmode to hide textures), and various plug-ins and scripts could be used to automate play, these things must be activated and/or implemented by the end-user. Windower itself is not an automation program, much as Clipper isn't, and AdRadar isn't, and so on, so forth..

I understand the rule, and adhere to it for obvious reasons. But this still is unclear, it's not like you don't have to tell the bot what to do/hit start.

[Kohan]

I understand the rule, and adhere to it for obvious reasons. But this still is unclear, it's not like you don't have to tell the bot what to do/hit start.

Of course, but you have to find that bot or create that script, and once you get it started, that bot (or botting script) is doing everything for you.

Windower has a great abundance of functionality that isn't related to botting, and it won't do that natively, nor was it constructed exclusively for that purpose. You'll have to feed it a script, setup a plugin, or configure another application to work in conjunction with it. Likewise, Clipper is not a bot, ApRadar isn't a bot, KParser isn't a bot, and the list goes on.

[Yubar]

Never used a script that did commands like his, but its basically creating a file in the script folder, having it named blizz5 and contains:

input /equip head "Goetia Petasos +2";
input /equip hands "Goetia Gloves +2";
input /equip body "Goetia Coat +2";
input /equip legs "Goet. Chausses +2";
input /equip ring1 "Snow Ring";
input /equip sub "Bugard Strap +1";
input /equip ammo "Witchstone";
input /equip back "Goetia Mantle";
input /equip ring2 "Snow Ring";
input /equip ear1 "Hecate's Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Moldavite Earring";
input /equip main "Jupiter's Staff";
input /equip neck "Elemental Torque";
input /equip feet "Goetia Sabots +2";
input /equip waist "Sorcerer's Belt";
input /ma "Blizzard V" <t>

Then your macro would just have //exec bliz5.
Not sure all the commands available, only ever used it for gear changing sets, but spellcast does all that for you, so I never really got into making many scripts, other than random magic skillup scripts.

I tried that it is telling me System out of memory, executable file is corrupt, or relocation were invalid.

[FNH]

I put in merits for a weapon back in the 90 cap era, now leveled the job to 99. My skill is around 430 with merits and somewhere around 405(i dont remember exact numbers), but I'm not seeing a lot, if any, skill ups on normal exp mobs. Should I remove the merits and then cap skill or are there mobs (outside NMs) that would be good to skill up on?

[Rehn]

What weapon? Try montagna + abyssobugard in grauberg.

Those merits should not affect your skillup rate whatsoever. Just make sure the mobs /c at least decent challenge and it's just a grind from there. Use multihit weapon if the job has access to one.

[noodles355]

So basically, anything that lets you automate an in-game process is ban worthy, but anything that allows you to hack the game by other means is fine. Why is the stance only for automating shit? I think you need to redefine the rules of what can and can't be talked about because you're basically saying "this cheat is ok to talk about but this cheat isn't".
I see no reason why you allow discussion of a program that lets you fleehack and walk through walls, but don't allow discussion of a program that allows you to perform a repeated action such as trading, or casting a spell, which is anything is less "harmful" to others.
People have been talking openly about windower scripts that allow automating actions quite clearly for years ("Whats the easiest way to skillup X magic?" "Has anyone got a good skillup script?" etc). You say you infract for those but you don't, and yet discussing a bot that does that exact same thing is against the rules?

Now, a question:
Do fished up monsters rage? Because I've been holding them on my main whilst my mule fishes matsyas, and at the start they hit for single digits through phalanx+Terras staff, and now they're raping my stoneskin with phalanx+terras and they're all resisting sleep like a bitch (sleep2 30sec duration for all of them)...

[Rocl]

because fafnir

[dasva]

Now, a question:
Do fished up monsters rage? Because I've been holding them on my main whilst my mule fishes matsyas, and at the start they hit for single digits through phalanx+Terras staff, and now they're raping my stoneskin with phalanx+terras and they're all resisting sleep like a bitch (sleep2 30sec duration for all of them)...

Sorta it's not like normal but yeah they build resist and get stronger. Decen pdt set + regen 2 + phalanx + protect was enough for me to hold them for hours though.

[Kohan]

So basically, anything that lets you automate an in-game process is ban worthy, but anything that allows you to hack the game by other means is fine.

That's correct. Active user input is what makes the difference.

Why is the stance only for automating shit? I think you need to redefine the rules of what can and can't be talked about because you're basically saying "this cheat is ok to talk about but this cheat isn't".

As mentioned, it's rather simple, and not random at all. If it's automated, it's not all right. If it requires active user participation, it is. This also answers your other wonderment (why Clipper is permitted, but bots are not).

People have been talking openly about windower scripts that allow automating actions quite clearly for years ("Whats the easiest way to skillup X magic?" "Has anyone got a good skillup script?" etc). You say you infract for those but you don't, and yet discussing a bot that does that exact same thing is against the rules?

It is something that people have been infracted for in the past, but sometimes not—moderation was inconsistent. This is a concern that forum users have justifiably complained about in the past. "Why does one person get away with this, but I don't?" That's unfair, and it shouldn't be that way.

As such, instead of simply charging in and infracting people, I'm letting them know what the truth of the matter is. With Darkmagi's post, he provided a good segue, which I in turn used as an opportunity to explain what the actual policy is. It isn't new, but enforcement has not been uniform across the board. In the future, it most likely will be.

The alternative would be not informing anyone and simply infracting and/or banning them. I don't believe that's the right route to take, and I don't believe anyone else would, either.

[Prothescar]

Is there a way to disable gamma correction when XI starts? Annoying to have to reset my control panel every time I load XI just to reset my gamma

[noodles355]

As mentioned, it's rather simple, and not random at all. If it's automated, it's not all right. If it requires active user participation, it is.

My question now is simple: Is this the correct route to take? I'm not convinced. I'm struggling to see the reasoning for the stance of: Automated cheating: Bad, cheating that requires input: Fine.

You've expained what the system is very clearly. What I think should be opened for discussion is whether it is the correct way to go about it. Simple reasoning being that as I mentioned, many forms of cheating that require active user participation are often worse than the forms of cheating that are automated. By which I mean that often, the automated "botting" being discussed is a way to do something that is already possible in the game, whereas other forms of cheating that "require active user participation" makes it possible to do things that would be otherwise impossible. Almost everything you can do with one of the automated bots you could do without it too, but almost everything you can do with tools such as clipper you could not do without it.

If anything, the stance should be reversed and tools that automate tedious yet normal game processes should be allowed to be discussed, and tools that require active user participation should be infraction-worthy.

Easier still, just ban both from public discussion. Maybe let people ask like the guy a few pages back did, but say all responses must be PMd or something idk.

[Sechs]

I dunno, this all sounds a bit hypocritical.
I'm just a user and my behaviour should be that to adapt to the rules of a community I do not administer and on which I am a guest, wether or not I agree with such rules.
Still, I guess it's polite to raise questions. In my country there's a proverb that says: "Questioning is allowed, Answering is courtesy".

In light of this premise what I'd like to know is why is BG trying to apply these rules. Are BG moderators/administrators trying to protect the website, its staff and its community as well from possible future bad implications, even legal ones, or just issues in the relationship with SE?
Or, second example, they're doing it just to defend the ideology of something being righteous and just and something else being bad and wrong?

Because if it's the first case I may or may not agree, but it does definitely make sense, especially if the risks are real and not just paranoia. If it's the second then it sounds like an issue of morals, it depends on highly subjective factors and it doesn't really make much sense to me.


Whatever the case is, it would be good to have clearer and more coherent lines on how to behave on these forums concerning those instruments. Because while I don't like bots/cheats, they've reached such a diffusion level lately that I've never seen in 8 years of FFXI. You can't pretend they don't exist because that would be hipocrisy, but if you wanna draw lines like "you can talk up to here, from here onwards no talk please" then there should be a better coherence imho, the example Noodles made about user-interaction or not shows very strongly what I mean, imho.



The thing that always made me particularly mad about cheats/bots was not the use by itself, but the behaviour people showed in public.
People who act like they are the righteous crusaders of justice, morals and anti-bots (while in truth they were 24/7 botters), People who act like they do all on their own out of skills and call everything easy (while they're highly relying on bots and cheats), People who overreacted about anything hinting at bots/cheats, like they were some sort of religion-fanatic, hating other people like they raped and killed their mothers in front of their eyes.
I mean, wtf? Talk about exxagerations...

[Julian]

In light of this premise what I'd like to know is why is BG trying to apply these rules. Are BG moderators/administrators trying to protect the website, its staff and its community as well from possible future bad implications, even legal ones, or just issues in the relationship with SE?
Or, second example, they're doing it just to defend the ideology of something being righteous and just and something else being bad and wrong?

It's more or less the first one. Pretty much, Clipper talk is ok until someone from SE finds it and decides to throw a hissy fit about it.

Hope you don't mind my trying to explain the reasoning behind it, Kohan.

[TheDirtyHobo]

So I've been playing on and off for the past year and a half and have sort of stopped paying attention to the optimal gear for dnc since it's been hardly useable in the past 2 major content systems. Now I've getting back into it for salvage since its at least passable for it. Byrths ffxiah seems out of date and the official forums dnc section is basically dead, I was wondering what the high end dnc sets (tp march, tp no march, exent, rudras) look like now. I can more or less get anything except hexed -1 and some of the more annoying abyssea stuff to.

Also as a side note what order should I be picking up skadi+1 in if dnc is the only job I'll be using it for?

[Draylo]

I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that SE reads this site and it would look bad to see it having bots being handed out and talked about.