It's election day. Predictions and further discussion. Spoilers: Obama won

[kuronosan]

Uh... I'll say it.

Why shouldn't they be allowed to live? It's not the baby's fault.

Until its neural system has developed to the point of consciousness, it isn't a baby.

[Tweek]

Republican who is pro-choice checking in.. I hate abortion discussions.

[Tarage]

I guess that's where I fundamentally disagree. I'm bad at debating though, so I won't try to argue it.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-life or pro-choice, I just feel like a lot more should be done to discourage abortion. It should be the very last resort, and not an easy fix. I'm much more of a fan of adoption and believe it should be easier for everyone to adopt instead of the tangled mess it currently is.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Ok, how about "I shouldn't have to put my life on hold for 9 months, put incredible stresses on my body, suffer extreme pain, risk required surgery or a small chance of death, miss work and take on thousands of dollars in medical expenses."

Is that a justification? Because that's what pregnant women have to do if they don't kill the fetus. Carrying a baby to term isn't easy or painless or without cost. I think born woman's suffering is worth more than a fetus's life. She shouldn't have to undergo that suffering if she doesn't want to.

I'm willing to play devils advocate, but I don't think I should shit-up this thread with abortion talk. I didn't think my initial post would generate this response.

[Mazmaz]

Until its neural system has developed to the point of consciousness, it isn't a baby.

I'm assuming you're gonna go ahead and define consciousness right?

[archibaldcrane]

Of course it is, but no one on the right has the balls to say, "Babies produced by rape should still be allowed to live."

Are...you fucking serious?

You realize that Mitt Romney's VP nominee, Paul Ryan, does not support an exception to allow abortions in cases of rape. You realize that the OFFICIAL REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM THIS YEAR advocates making abortion illegal without exceptions in the case of rape or incest.

This isn't a fringe concern. It's a plank of the official national Republican platform.

[Cream Soda]

As far as I'm concerned, life starts when the baby can live without being attached to an umbilical cord. Until then, it's just part of the mother, like any other part of her body.

[Salodin]

Uh... I'll say it.

Why shouldn't they be allowed to live? It's not the baby's fault.

Not the babies choice to make, not that the baby even has the cognitive function to realize it's alive.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Are...you fucking serious?

You realize that Mitt Romney's VP nominee, Paul Ryan, does not support an exception to allow abortions in cases of rape. You realize that the OFFICIAL REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM THIS YEAR advocates making abortion illegal without exceptions in the case of rape or incest.

This isn't a fringe concern. It's a plank of the official national Republican platform.

Oh, I didn't know that. Why did the one guy get criticized so harshly then?

[Acevalefor]

This is really not that difficult. I think everyone would agree, that at a minimum, the sole purpose of government is to protect rights. If the baby is alive, then guess what, it has rights that need to be protected. So guess what happens when a politician believes babies are alive? They pass legislation preventing abortion.

He started the statement by criticizing liberals, setting the stage, and then makes to intuitive statement as to why we should consider the argument a straw man.

So the legal/political issue should never have been abortion rights. Rather, it should be about the definition of life and the rights associated with that definition. There is no clear definition right now so that leaves the field wide open for political jockeying since this is a hot button right now.

[kuronosan]

I'm assuming you're gonna go ahead and define consciousness right?

Do you want me to?

The point I'm making is that "life beginning" is a gray area. There's a line somewhere between "no neural activity" and "neural activity" where consciousness develops.

Don't be such a tool.

[Tyrath]

Oh, I didn't know that. Why did the one guy get criticized so harshly then?

Because he said it out loud for everyone to hear rather than burying it far back in his platform.

[archibaldcrane]

Because he said it out loud for everyone to hear rather than burying it far back in his platform.

Basically this.

But then again, we've got Paul Ryan on the record recently. It's more about the WAY you say a rape victim should be forced to carry her rapist's baby to term, than WHETHER you say a rape victim should be forced to carry her rapist's baby to term.

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/20...t-abortion.php

“I’m very proud of my pro-life record,” Ryan told WJHL-TV in Virginia in an interview aired Thursday. “I’ve always adopted the idea, the position, that the method of conception doesn’t change the definition of life.”

See, if you refer to rape as a neutral "method of conception" it doesn't draw nearly the heat as if you say a rape baby is a "gift from god".

[RKenshin]

I guess that's where I fundamentally disagree. I'm bad at debating though, so I won't try to argue it.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-life or pro-choice, I just feel like a lot more should be done to discourage abortion. It should be the very last resort, and not an easy fix. I'm much more of a fan of adoption and believe it should be easier for everyone to adopt instead of the tangled mess it currently is.

Common misconception that abortion is some sort of 'easy-fix.'

GOP seems to like to get people to think that getting an abortion as easy as hopping in the car, arriving at your local Planned Parenthood drive-through abortion station, and going on with your day as usual 5 minutes later.

In reality, it involves several steps including any variety of: a mandatory waiting period, and/or counseling/psychiatric evaluation, and/or a doctor's referral/approval, and/or a painful/invasive procedure, and/or exams or tests, and/or regular check-ups after the fact in addition to potential risk of sterility (depending). Varies greatly by state, stage, and the offices they're performed at of course.

[Ddz]

Realizing this thread got derailed into abortion discussion but going to comment anyway. Personally, I'm pro choice. I'm not sure I could personally endure aborting a fetus, but I just can't help but think that if I got pregnant from rape and had that baby, that every time I looked at that person, I'd relive that awful event. Not sure I'm selfless enough to love a rape child. Pretty sure that makes me a horrible person but my two cents.

For me it's more about the fulfilling life of the child being born into the world instead of simply letting a fetus live/carry to term.

[Acevalefor]

Republican who is pro-choice checking in.. I hate abortion discussions.

So do I. Nothing productive ever comes of them. I don't even know why I said anything at all...I knew it would go nowhere.

[Mazmaz]

Do you want me to?

The point I'm making is that "life beginning" is a gray area. There's a line somewhere between "no neural activity" and "neural activity" where consciousness develops.

Don't be such a tool.

Define "alive", using physiological terms, or shut up.

Yea I'm the tool.

[Andalusian girls]

Republican who is pro-choice checking in.. I hate abortion discussions.

my conservative values advise me to keep the coercive power of the federal government out of a woman's vagina regardless of my personal feelings

it is vexing that conservatism has become associated with such an intrusive and aggressive projection of the state's power

i'm terribly vexed

[kuronosan]

Yes, you are.

[RKenshin]

As far as I'm concerned, life starts when the baby can live without being attached to an umbilical cord. Until then, it's just part of the mother, like any other part of her body.

Pretty much this.