FFXIV story/lore thread

[Kaixin]

Who said it was? I certainly didn’t. It seems I should have made it more clear either that I was joking or that in my jest I made a literary comparison. But I suppose if you’re willing to give the least charitable reading to my unhedged statements, there wasn’t much I could have done anyway. Clearly, two games in the same franchise, localized by the same people, that share at least 9 readily-identifiable plot devices should never be compared; certainly not on a forum created by and for people who played one or both of them. And to spare you the trouble of repeating a platitude three times: that was sarcasm.

tldr

[ronin sparthos]

It's basically the FFX plot.

Spoiler: show

The frozen Dragon fayth were praying to summon the physical form of their legendary Blitzball star player, Bahamut. It's just become apparent that when "primals" (extremely lose term as we've discovered) are summoned, they're never a perfect recreation. They are aspected to whatever crystals are used and sometimes their gender/appearance might get skewed. It's really just the summoners' intent personified. Just like how Tidus wasn't a perfect clone of Shuyin.

Also, one of the more obvious cues to dragons actually being "good guys" is the "Dove Aevis" in Snowcloak and the "Chary Heretics" that turn into them.

I get the impression from 2.4 that we should expect the Dravanians to be as varied on their outlook on things as much as Ishgardians are. They aren't this all encompassing evil that Ishgard bills them as. Saint Shiva's defection and subsequent ascendance to heretic queen likely has grounds in solid reasoning and I wouldn't be surprised if we make Dravanian allies in the expansion.

If anything, 2.4 did well to setup the ideological camps and to foreshadow a murky political situation once the Holy See becomes accessible. Move over Ul'Dah, we've got a candidate for corruption and decadency king. One worshiping the god of money and the other blinded by ideological fervor. If I didn't know any better SE, I'd say you were making real world commentary.

As for individuals, we got a colorful assortment of Elezen to demonstrate our camps:

Roaille is your individual wronged by Ishgard and subsequently becomes a triple agent. Seems her birth and station are to blame there.
Aymeric is our progressive, more concerned with his people than ideology. Breaking ranks assisting you and all.
Lady Iceheart is your radical. Probably right about the conflict but takes matters to extremes both through the heretics and becoming a primal.
Haurchefant and Drillemont are punchclock soldiers who respect you based on your deeds. Their distance from Ishgard also serves to lessen their ideological fervor.

Oh and since we're making XI comments, lets hope XIV stays away from 'An Ascian did it.' territory. Though it's totally gonna be Ascians.

[Cutriss]

It's basically the FFX plot.

gdi beaten haha

[Rocl]

The Mog storyline outlined that pretty well a long time ago, I don't really consider it much of a "reveal" at this point.

That's not the reveal he's crying about. Good King Moggle Mog XII has always been a grey area; it was our first taste of a 'grey area' primal in 1.0 though the game went through great pains (at least the Archons did) to say he was not a primal. Even Louisoix was confused that he was summoned like a primal yet not a primal. (Also important to note Moggle Mog XII was added to the game after the Japan Earthquake/Tsunami as they felt Leviathan and Titan would be insensitive lol) Whether or not this 'reveal' of the 'true nature' of Primals was intended to be taken as far as it was (we'll never know, like we'll never know how the original storyline was meant to pan out) is an interesting digression though.

Even though Kaixin has already spoiled some of the more 'rare' information, I'm loathe to do so until I see it in game for myself. I mean, yeah, I've seen the cutscenes/read the dialogues, but I mean I'm not keen on discussing until it's in my own copy of the Unending Journey!!!

Suffice to say that your idea of Hydaelyn being a dull, boring character while not unfounded, is hopefully wrong based on how the game is turning it up. I also began to understand Shiva's song mysterious "her" as a reference to Hydaelyn though I had yet to really sit down with it. The creation of Hydaelyn as a Primal in the aftermath of Carteneau would fit together so well too, as there was no reference of a Mothercrystal in 1.0. People fervently wanted to believe in the land, prayed for it's restoration, etc. that it would not be wholly surprising to me that the land became 'self-aware.' This leaves us open to "but then who gave us Echo?" but Shiva storyline seems to indicate the Echo's power doesn't always align with Hydaelyn's will. (Hydaelyn not wanting Primals summoned, Iceheart having the Echo and using it to summon a 'Primal') In addition, the fact the Ascians were able to teach a Sahagin how to use the Echo in the Leviathan storyline strengthens that this "gift" is probably not as simple as being blessed by Hydaelyn.

The Ascians also refer to the Echo as "the Gift" which, being diametrically opposed to Hydaelyn, always struck me as odd.

tl;dr primals to quote a bible "What is dead may never die"

[Niiro]

There's a few ways they can go with the nature of primals as we know them.

We know they can be willed out of nothing, but now we also know they can be humans as well. It's easy to imagine Ifrit, Garuda, and Levi coming into existence merely out of the will of the beast tribes because they're more or less purely malevolent and destructive (much like their associated tribes).

Titan's mannerisms make sense as well since he doesn't want to destroy things as much as he does defend the Kobold from outside threats (the Kobold aren't depicted as being particularly aggressive).

Ramuh is an interesting case, he seems to have a will independent of those who summoned him. The sylph fanatics call on him to destroy but he faces us, tests/judges us, and relents. If primals do fall into "categories" I'd say it's possible that he may also have been a human. It would also explain why he is, in form, a human man despite being summoned by weird floating sentient plants.

In XI (blah, blah, shutup) the celestials were all once mortals that were chosen by Altana to be elevated to godly status, I wonder if we'll see anything similar to that in the origins of some of the XIV primals.

Re: above post about the echo

Yea the nature of the Echo is still kind of weird, if I had to guess how they would explain the Echo existing before the Hydaelyn-as-a-god thing they'll probably just say she was always there just with a more subdued presence because shit hadn't yet hit the fan with the 7th umbral era. But it also begs the question of where it actually comes from to begin with if the Ascians are able to manipulate it as well.

[Lyall]

Subscribing to the "Hydaelyn is a new primal" theory, that complicates Zodiark a lot. The Ascians have seemingly revered the dark crystal for longer than five years, which leads to a couple of possibilities. One, that the Ascians became aware of Hydaelyn and just flat-out manifested Zodiark to oppose her, which seems unlikely. The second, more reasonable one is that Zodiark's place as the creeping bad guy was manifested by Eorzea/mankind's fear of death and the dark. If belief can make things real, what are the odds that this belief didn't straight-up make the Ascians, too?

Elidibus reveals that our goals and the Ascians goals are one in the same. Right now we seem pretty intent on stopping the Ascians, so what if they're doing all of this strictly to give rise to heroes who will stop them? The player characters are openly doing great deeds and the WoL legends at Carteneau public knowledge. We're forging belief that these darknesses might be stopped completely.

Tinfoil hat firmly planted on my head, I'm putting the wager that the Ascians just want to be destroyed and are building us up so we can myth-slay them for good. It's the plot to Rayearth, basically.

[Tomino]

I ask you, loremasters -

Spoiler: show

Could someone explain to me the whole deal with Grandapa Louix becoming Phoenix? I saw the T12 cs, and I got he gets boosted by the Twelve to becomes Super Elezen and beats the crap out of Bahamut.
But how does that lead to him transforming into Phoenix?

Also, anyone managed to learn about T13 final cs? It will be long until I get to clear that encounter myself, and how so damn curious.

[Evane]

I ask you, loremasters -

Spoiler: show

Could someone explain to me the whole deal with Grandapa Louix becoming Phoenix? I saw the T12 cs, and I got he gets boosted by the Twelve to becomes Super Elezen and beats the crap out of Bahamut.
But how does that lead to him transforming into Phoenix?

Also, anyone managed to learn about T13 final cs? It will be long until I get to clear that encounter myself, and how so damn curious.

It had to do with the unreal amount of aether that went into him prior to his death. Lots of aether + a wish = a primal.

[Rocl]

T12 spoilers, obvi and a lot of lore-guessing

Spoiler: show

We're learning more about the true nature of Primals. It seems like the Twelve he summoned willingly gave him the aether collected and his fervent wish to save Eorzea and have it be reborn is what made him become Phoenix. Much like Iceheart became Shiva, gorging himself on the Twelve's aether in order to surpass mortal limits made him something more than man--a god. His deification was born out of a wish to see a realm reborn and we can take this to influence his transformation into Phoenix. Notice after he shoots through Bahamut's heart (and you're to blame) he dissipates into the aether as a Primal would. Why is he in Eorzea then, after returning to aether? The desires and hopes of mankind to see Eorzea healed. The desperate pleas of grandchildren to see their beloved grandsire. A leader of men, lost and overburdened, praying for guidance-- directly at a 'key' used by Ascian and Scion alike to summon Gods. In many ways, the Scions, Archons, and Grand Company leaders had inadvertently summoned Louisoix back to Eorzea. Much the same way my theory with how they accidentally gave Hydaelyn sentience. However, transcending mortality probably warps one's mind and now knowing the true nature of the Primals, Louisoix was a changed man. Bahamut was a leader of dragons summoned by Meracydian wyrms in their most desperate hour; Louisoix was a leader of men summoned by Eorzeans in a time of great duress. Wishing for succor, they asked Louisoix to help guide Eorzea's rebirth, and this brought him back to the material plane as Phoenix.

"Seeds of divinity are wont to quicken in Eorzea's fertile soil" says Lahabrea

[Evane]

Spoiler: show

You are implying the he wasn't tempered by Bahamut. So why did he try to stop us from going to Bahamut and then after defeat sending us there?

I ask this because I have no clue what happens between his defeat and the CS we saw.

[Tomino]

Spoiler: show

This is a very interesting explanation, but it's a shame it all boils down to "Beat the crap out of mad Phoenix", then.
So, I get Bahamut being dragons' primal is the huge T13 spoiler?

Regarding the overall storyline of ARR, do you think it will all come to an end for 2.5?
I mean Ascians, Zodiark, etc - I wonder if they're designed as a MAJOR plot arc ( I'm thinking Sargereass for WoW ) or if Heavensward will be about something else entirely.

[Raldo]

Spoiler: show

You are implying the he wasn't tempered by Bahamut. So why did he try to stop us from going to Bahamut and then after defeat sending us there?

I ask this because I have no clue what happens between his defeat and the CS we saw.

Spoiler: show

I missed the T12 completion CS (is it still around somewhere?), but I would assume he was freed from whatever primal influence (Phoenix) and got to speak his earthly mind before he shuffled off into the aether.

As for why he was resisting us from getting to Bahamut in the first place, I can only guess here, so here's a few musings...
1) Phoenix is generally represented as a cycle of destruction and rebirth. If the element of destruction (Bahamut) is removed, so too is the need for rebirth. Without the need for rebirth, Phoenix may lose the prayers sustaining his own existence.
2) Phoenix's goal could be a simple to see ANYTHING reborn, including Bahamut.
3) Maybe Bahamut's own wishes to see his own country of Meracydia (or more simply, just himself) reborn influenced Phoenix's desires.

Super meta answer: Phoenix relied on the prayers of the players to make XIV decent, so Bahamut's reconstruction was only a trial meant to entertain us.

[Rocl]

I don't think the Ascian/Zodiark storyline will end for 2.5, but it might have some major revelations.

Final turns of Final Coil spoilers

Spoiler: show

In the cutscene before the Phoenix fight, Alphinaud asks Louisoix if he champions Bahamut because he's tempered or because he's now a Primal. Louisoix is acting of his (Phoenix's) own free will, I think, since Louisoix answers by transforming into Phoenix. I took this to mean that he has become more aware of mankind's failings as he rose to godhood, but it's just as likely that Phoenix is a Primal tempered by Bahamut. I can't say for certain, but my thought is his own failure to save Eorzea as a man has bittered him towards men as a god. The huge T13 spoiler is, well, nothing really. All the spoilers happen at T12 which is arguably the climax of the Coil/7UE storyline and 13 is simply tying up the loose end (destroying Bahamut).

Pre-fight T12 CS


I don't think I've seen a T12 kill CS, only the Louisoix v Bahamut FMV

[Evane]

Spoiler: show

Here is what that scene meant for me. Lou is tempered by Bahamut. The knowledge he gained about the war between dragons and Allagans he couldn't have known without Bahamut telling him. He also happened to have he ability to transform into Phoenix. So he used that ability against us. His eyes were glowing red, just like Nael's in 1.0's United We Stand.

The twelve are a power source. They might even be parts of Hydaelyn, whole made one. If one race prayed with an elemental crystals, one part of Hydaelyn will respond by sending a massive surge of that elementally aspected aether to a person/sacrifice to transform into a beast like creature. That might be why summoning a primal drains the land's aether/energy. Lou got them all and became Phoenix. Light elemental or non-elemental it's a toss up. Bahamut could be the same if their homeland is rich with all kind of crystals. That dark crystal though. Could it because of his hatred that it changed color? Is it like FF3's worlds of light and darkness combined with FF13's mythos? The whole "Massive amount of souls (aether in this case) becoming loose trying to burst open the gates of Valhalla (World of darkness/Acsians' Realm/The void.)"? I guess we will know a lot more when the next patch arrives with the last installment of CT.

[miokomioko]

I am working with the assumption that if a primal exists for an extremely prolonged amount of time, the aether that they consist of begins to crystallize. This could be why Odin also continues to persist as an "elder primal," being sealed away in Urth's Gift instead of being defeated and his aether dispersed... allowing the aether to become a physical thing that is much more difficult to dispose of. When Odin is defeated in the Steel Reign FATE, he bows out instead of "dying," right?

[Rocl]

I don't remember what happened to Odin when I killed him at Fanfest. Maybe he's our 2.5 Primal fight though and we'll get some story on it.

[miokomioko]

I don't remember what happened to Odin when I killed him at Fanfest.

Fanfest fight has him dispersing into aether... but I don't consider that canon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukHttBv_nqk#t=406

[Kaixin]

Spoiler: show

Well, Bahamut is kept in existence by the fact that the Allagan kept so many Meracydian dragons in stasis acting as a prayer battery, right? Convo below. Odin's people are either still out there or Urth knows a way to seal a primal that the rest of the Allagans didn't.

See below.

Spoiler: show

#103 Alisaie
By the Twelve... Dragons...and so many...
#104 Alisaie
We were aware that the Allagans possessed the means to control the creatures, but to imprison them thus is...barbaric. I would not wish such a fate upon my worst enemy.
#105 Alisaie
'Tis plain that no love was lost between the Allagans and the dragons, but was it truly necessary to keep so great a number here?
#106 Alisaie
Dalamud did not want for defenses, this we have experienced firsthand. Such guardians as the Allagans created─both living and unliving─were surely no less capable of repelling intruders than these poor creatures...
#107 Alphinaud
Tell me something, Alisaie.
#108 Alphinaud
Have you not managed to determine by whose will Bahamut exists?
#109 Alisaie
No, I have not. At first, I assumed that Bahamut had no people of his own─that the Allagans had perhaps discovered a way to simulate prayer itself.
#110 Alisaie
However, Nael's words gave me cause to reconsider─specifically, the shade's mention of Bahamut's “beloved children.”
#111 Alisaie
From that, I inferred that the primal is given form by the will of worshipers whom we have yet to─
#112 Alisaie
Oh.
#113 Alisaie
Gods strike me down for a blind fool!
#114 Alisaie
Bahamut's beloved children, right there before my very eyes... How could I be so stupid?
#115 Alisaie
Who else but the dragons of eld would summon Bahamut? Who else but they could sustain him? And to think I wondered why the Allagans kept them imprisoned here!
#116 Alphinaud
Even should the flame of Bahamut's life go out, his faithful children would summon him back.
#117 Alphinaud
For this reason, the Allagan Empire kept an army of dragons here in a perpetual state of duress, that they might sustain the primal's existence.
#118 Alphinaud
Truly, the Allagans' ingenuity knew no bounds...and neither did their cruelty.

I think it's interesting that Urianger implies that Odin was a good guy. Or at least "not wholly evil."

#7 Urianger
...So it is true. Having awakened from nigh-eternal slumber, the Dark Divinity now rides free in the Shroud.
#8 Urianger
Whilst you were afield, I immersed myself in the scriptures. The more I scoured the words, the more I did realize that the writings draw heavily upon Allagan historical chronicles.
#9 Urianger
History is quite a fascinating beast, is it not? One nation's glory is another's suffering─one nation's great hero, another's most abhorrent villain.
#10 Urianger
I mean not to speak in platitudes, only to say that there is never but a single side to any story─even a story that is presented as historical fact.

So here's another example of "Dark" being linked to "good." Odin could have been like Bahamut, a primal summoned to try to resist Allagan invasion. Either that or Urianger is a dirty Ascian spy trying to make us doubt ourselves.

[Rocl]

Fanfest fight has him dispersing into aether... but I don't consider that canon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukHttBv_nqk#t=406

I legitimately don't remember that cutscene because I was too excited to watch <.< I also think we might've had skip cutscene turned on lol

Anyways, re: Odin vs Bahamut despite both being 'elder' Primals, it's clear they are both pretty different other than being enemies of Allag. We'd have to see the FATE spawning/disappearing to be sure I guess. (What happens if you let Steel Reign time out?) I don't think there's a lot of merit in speculating on Odin with what little information we have tho

[miokomioko]

Spoiler: show

Well, Bahamut is kept in existence by the fact that the Allagan kept so many Meracydian dragons in stasis acting as a prayer battery, right? Convo below. Odin's people are either still out there or Urth knows a way to seal a primal that the rest of the Allagans didn't

Well, my theory was regardless of the method or purpose of their sustained existence and more about the core existing because of it. Odin was simply sealed away because he was too powerful to defeat by his opponents. Bahamut, on the other hand...

Spoiler: show

... was captured, imprisoned, and enslaved along with his "children"... but where every other standard primal is defeated traditionally and their aether immediately dispersed upon doing so... the only "elder" primal faced thus far has some sort of crystalized core that needed to specifically be destroyed from the inside to finish the job. That core must somehow be crucial in his sustaining as well as the prayer from the Meracydian dragons. It was in plain sight when Louisoix pierced him as Phoenix... making me feel like he barely missed completely destroying Bahamut in one fell swoop.

If you let Steel Reign Odin get his Shin-Zetsuken off, he pretty much goes "hmph! unworthy." and disappears. In the Fanfest battle, it's what looks like an Ouroboros (or perhaps Midgardsormr (world serpent)) symbol appearing and being sliced. Oh the speculations.