FFXIV story/lore thread

[Rocl]

While Enkidu is ultimately silliness, is it not basically similar to Moggle Mog being a "primal"? In the whole "myth made real" sense.

I'm hesitant to consider a lot of the Hildibrand storyline "canon;" like the events happen but even Godbert's seat on the Syndicate is severely glossed over in the rest of the game so backing up the idea of the main scenario ever summoning Primal like Enkidu is very unlikely.

That said, I could just as easily go "Gilgamesh isn't born of Hydaelyn's aether like every other being in Eorzea, so the summoning of Enkidu is by definition different and separate than the summoning of Moggle Mog." A lot of questions about primals are still up in the air, but I again think the idea of Moggle Mog XII and Enkidu are distinct. The idea of Moggle Mog XII has existed for millenia; more than 1 person believes in Moggle Mog XII (even non-tempered Moogles believe he did exist). The only person in Eorzea who has any idea what Enkidu is, is Gilgamesh.

Classifying Enkidu as a Primal creates more problems than anything else, and not a way in the something like Phoenix or Shiva does (which advances the overall plot/helps us understand how a Primal is born) so yeah. Not to mention the person who declares Enkidu a Primal is Hildibrand. If you're going to believe Hildibrand is a good person to believe on the subject of aether and deiforms, then okay but I don't want to have this conversation LOL

[ebil]

This is why I wrote a "primal" and not a primal, I initially didn't include the word primal at all because there is this distinction, but the act of summoning is essentially the same if that makes sense?

I personally considered the Hildibrand stuff a silly way to explain primal/"primal" summoning to the masses and called it "Primals for dummies" when it was released, I don't think the process of doing so is different at all. It's driven by faith and an offering of (crystallized) aether.

[Odin'sLaw]

I'm not posting in spoilers about videos released by SE themselves but to wit;

your ideas are sound speculation, Quetzacoatl linked to Ixali due to mesoamerican-based naming is actually a pretty good detective work
however, and i may be misremembering here, the Ehcatl don't hate Garuda-- they don't care about Garuda period. they believe that worshipping Garuda won't let them fly as they once did and decided to do it themselves via the Dezul Qualan

Allagan meddling and removing the Ixal wings seems pretty certain to me; for a while I simply believed the Ixal were crazy when they said they used to be able to fly since the game tries very hard to make you realize not all myths are real

I'm also not keen on believing Enkidu in the Hildibrand quests was a Primal (he doesn't dissipate into aether when you defeat him, for instance); what he was doesn't really matter but the elezen inspector, Briarden (sp?), someone with probably the most sense in the entire plotline, refuses to classify him as a Primal as readily as the Sultansworn chick so I will too. we dont have a clear definition of what Gilgamesh is in Eorzea or how he arrived (that I can recall) so using Enkidu is pretty shoddy imo (they explain away Ultros and Typhon as voidsent summoned by the Thaumaturge's Guild by accident, but I can't recall any real explanation of Gilgamesh--maybe i'll look into this later when i'm not fishing)

when my head isn't so fuzzy i'll post longer orz i have a FEVER AND IM GETTING DISTRACTED BY FISHING

wasn't there a debate about Gilgamesh been a time traveler of some sorts? which is why he is in every game since 5? (and apparently in type 0 that's his youngest form)

[Niiro]

Yea I kind of assumed the Gilgamesh we meet is meant to be the same one from FF5 and pretty every other FF game (save XI).

He's established as an interdimensional traveler that likes to fight and collect weapons, that's pretty much all the explanation needed for him to appear virtually anywhere.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Look if Hildy isn't canon I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Though while we're on the subject of primals and HW, can I get the tl;dr on Iceheart and why Ishgard considers her a threat (if it's more than just "associates with dragons, die heretic")? I'll be honest I kind of glossed over that whole arc until the Shiva fight.

[Rocl]

She organized the heretics who were previously unorganized, basically. Heretics were always a thorn in Ishgard's side, but they never were much of a threat because they were primarily isolated bandits. After Iceheart came, the attacks became more frequent and started targeting actual important shipments of weapons and crystals. Then her intent to summon Shiva became known and now she's known to have summoned Shiva as a Primal so that's of course an issue as well. Also, let's not forget Ysale has some sort of powerful magick being able to dispel Ishgard's defenses before the Steps of Faith. She's a leader of heretics with hithertofore unseen powers trained against Ishgard. (i.e., not many people with the Echo exist, and fewer still are probably fighting against Ishgard)

(Hildibrand may be canon, but Hildibrand himself is not someone we should treat as a reliable narrator)

[Sho]

Looking into it too deeply IMO concerning Enkidu.

I'm willing to assume that Gilgamesh simply wished for his buddy Enkidu to be with him around enough crystals, and Enkidu manifested itself, in the very same manner that the Mooglesguard manifested King Moggle Mog XII. Neither should be considered a primal at all -- The Mooglesguard wished for their king, and he appeared in the image they wanted, Gilgamesh wished for his Enkidu and his chicken took the form of his wish.

This instance of Gilgamesh can be portrayed as a person who is an interdimensional traveller visiting Eorzea, just like Lightning, Shantoto, and Ultros & Typhon (voidsent) before him (it's implied, not stated). However, he's on Eorzea now, not Planet R (FFV), so the summoning "rules" for Eorzea applies, even if he's just a visitor. If it looks to be summoned like a Primal, people on Eorzea will claim it to be a Primal, even if it's not. Even these examples are distant forms of what a Primal is -- aether made manifest into a form, through prayer of some sort.

[solracht]

I don't think the Hildibrand story is supposed to be taken seriously, but Enkidu being a primal isn't problematic because he doesn't fit the "definition". He's problematic because to accept Enkidu as canon is to accept that anyone, anywhere can inadvertently and easily wish aetherial beings into existence with just a handful of crystals... something that we would've seen in the main story already if it were possible to do so (because the implications are pretty big).

[Sho]

I don't think the Hildibrand story is supposed to be taken seriously, but Enkidu being a primal isn't problematic because he doesn't fit the "definition". He's problematic because to accept Enkidu as canon is to accept that anyone, anywhere can inadvertently and easily wish aetherial beings into existence with just a handful of crystals... something that we would've seen in the main story already if it were possible to do so (because the implications are pretty big).

Isn't that the entire point of primal summonings? Essentially anyone who can get a ton of crystals together can will into existence a primal, being it a materialized form of aether, or a form fabricated from the thoughts of a being. What we don't know is just how many crystals it takes & whether if the person (or people) in question need to be of greater mind/will (have a strong conviction) than the normal person to pull it off. In the case of primals such as Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, ritual foci and some sort of sacrifice is also needed.

I think it's a bigger problem to gauge just how many crystals needed to attempt any kind of summoning, because it's never implicitly stated in game -- he could have wished for a version of Enkidu that was vastly weaker than it's original being, due to a limited amount of crystals on hand. Still, the crates he wished over may be full of say, 100, 1,000, or even 10,000 crystals or more per box (but meeting a basic quota of crystals). Also willing to believe that the summoning of anything is seen by the people of Eorzea as taboo, especially after years and years of these beings laying waste to their lands, depriving their nations of aether, converting their people into mindless fanatics, just being dicks in general, etc. It's a stretch to say that most people in the world outside of a select few people would have the will, resources, knowledge and/or plans to pull off an actual summoning. Even then, the entire summoning of Shiva is finally what unnerved the Scions, because it did show that yes, even the common man could pull off a summoning as well.

Hildibrand being a humorous story doesn't at all change the fact that it's canon -- it's a comedic story set in a world where magic & spiritual beings are possible and the requirements to pull off such acts grows increasingly more vague.

[Rocl]

I keep telling myself I'm not going to go down this road, and I'm really hesitant to, but let's examine some facts.

We know Primals are called forth after the following: sufficient prayer, sufficient aether, and sufficient Ascian involvement. We are deliberately and knowingly kept from understanding the full definition and prerequisites for a Primal. Our only way of knowing what is a Primal and what isn't is based on what the game itself tells us through knowledgeable and reliable narrators. Hildibrand is NOT one of those.

Hildibrand is semi-canon, but if you accept everything in that storyline should be carried over and applied to the rest of the game's story idk wtf to tell you. If Godbert and Juliana can knock men through walls with a frying pan or send a chimera to the moon by throwing it, how the fuck was the Empire ever a credible threat?

[Sho]

I keep telling myself I'm not going to go down this road, and I'm really hesitant to, but let's examine some facts.

We know Primals are called forth after the following: sufficient prayer, sufficient aether, and sufficient Ascian involvement. We are deliberately and knowingly kept from understanding the full definition and prerequisites for a Primal. Our only way of knowing what is a Primal and what isn't is based on what the game itself tells us through knowledgeable and reliable narrators. Hildibrand is NOT one of those.

Hildibrand is semi-canon, but if you accept everything in that storyline should be carried over and applied to the rest of the game's story idk wtf to tell you. If Godbert and Juliana can knock men through walls with a frying pan or send a chimera to the moon by throwing it, how the fuck was the Empire ever a credible threat?

We can have a go of it. I don't mind going down the slippery slope because either way, Gilgamesh & Hildibrand are awesome, canon or non-canon.

I dislike the term "semi-canon." IMO it has to be accepted as canon or not at all, both of which is fine for me. It's perfectly fine to say that Hildibrand is just a made up story in the narrative of Hildibrand himself, but it can't also be only partially true to the real lore as well. If it's not canon, it's safe to assume that the Hildibrand story uses real story lore plot points to tell the story. Definitely a question for a competent lore person to ask Koji-Fox next time at any rate.

---

The story was all slapstick comedy; of course there would be scenes of women knocking grown ass men through walls with frying pans, dancing zombies, dudes flying around on enchanted swords (or spears) and half naked men making golden hammers larger before using limit breaks on shit. If canon, those scenes can be likened to just about any slapstick scene that happens in an otherwise very serious anime show out there. If Hildibrand is indeed canon, it's just one comical side narrative to the overarching story. As for the general strength of of his mom and pop, it could be written away as "Godbert cannot help save the world because of Syndicate duties, and Julyan only seeks to protect her son."

As for Hildibrand, I think you are reading too far into him claiming a Primal. They live in a world where the ideas of primals are constantly being shared, or talked about in each of the cities. What's honestly stopping Hildibrand from researching how a primal is summoned, if only the basics? You're saying only a select few people know that it takes crystals, prayer, and some ascian scheme, when it could likely be more people with this knowledge, Hildibrand included. If not this, he's the son of a Syndicate member who should otherwise have some base knowledge of how a primal is summoned. As far as Gilgamesh summoning Enkidu without an ascian, it was a chance occurrence of him wishing over a couple of boxes of crystals.

Smaller questions should be asked instead -- is your very first meeting with Godbert considered canon? He recognizes you later in the Hildibrand storyline if you oil him up before hand in the low level quest in 2.0 vanilla. Also all of the Sil’dih stuff cosigns the tale that Erik gives you in the MNK storyline.

And random, just beause:

Spoiler: show

?

[Rocl]

We can have a go of it. I don't mind going down the slippery slope because either way, Gilgamesh & Hildibrand are awesome, canon or non-canon.

Does Hildibrand exist? Yes. Does Gilgamesh exist? Yes. Do they obey the rules and laws of Eorzea? Not really.

I dislike the term "semi-canon." IMO it has to be accepted as canon or not at all, both of which is fine for me. It's perfectly fine to say that Hildibrand is just a made up story in the narrative of Hildibrand himself, but it can't also be only partially true to the real lore as well. If it's not canon, it's safe to assume that the Hildibrand story uses real story lore plot points to tell the story. Definitely a question for a competent lore person to ask Koji-Fox next time at any rate.

---

The story was all slapstick comedy; of course there would be scenes of women knocking grown ass men through walls with frying pans, dancing zombies, dudes flying around on enchanted swords (or spears) and half naked men making golden hammers larger before using limit breaks on shit. If canon, those scenes can be likened to just about any slapstick scene that happens in an otherwise very serious anime show out there.

Those slapstick anime scenes are semi-canon, not actual canon. Actually, I'm not keen on anime so you can feel free to correct me but... does any anime with a "serious" overtone make constant use of the exaggeration shit? Like in Evangelion does some Shinji watch some girl undress and she catches him and punches him to the moon and the next episode we begin with Shinji on the moon? I actually, again, haven't watched much anime or even Evangelion, but that's the sort of shit that would have to happen for it to be "canon canon." It's semi-canon because he gets hit but not canon-canon because he doesn't actually end up on the fucking moon.

If Hildibrand is indeed canon, it's just one comical side narrative to the overarching story. As for the general strength of of his mom and pop, it could be written away as "Godbert cannot help save the world because of Syndicate duties, and Julyan only seeks to protect her son."

That doesn't work at all. Godbert hasn't been on the Syndicate long at all. He's only had a seat since a former member died in the Calamity. Godbert's ridiculous feats of strength can't be canon-canon or else there's no reason Ul'dah should ever feel a threat from the Empire.

As for Hildibrand, I think you are reading too far into him claiming a Primal. They live in a world where the ideas of primals are constantly being shared, or talked about in each of the cities. What's honestly stopping Hildibrand from researching how a primal is summoned, if only the basics?

Point 1: He's an inept buffoon, that's kind of the point of his stories.
Point 2: The idea of Primals are not constantly being shared and talked about (not the finer points). The smallfolk know the beast tribes can summon their gods and call them Primals. The smallfolk do not know the finer points of the delineation between Moggle Mog, Shiva, and Ifrit. The smallfolk are illiterate and dumb. You're saying they're just as knowledgeable as people who are either influenced by otherwordly beings (Ascians) or learned scholars (Scions).
Point 3: Hildibrand can know that certain things are necessary for a primal (i.e. crystals), however his pronouncement of Enkidu as a primal cannot be taken as fact because of this. In fact, that's probably part of an attempt at humour by the writers. He is, again, being a ridiculous inept buffoon. Agreeing with an idiot means you're dumb!

You're saying only a select few people know that it takes crystals, prayer, and some ascian scheme, when it could likely be more people with this knowledge, Hildibrand included.

No. That's just patently false. If the knowledge of summoning was widespread, summoning would be widespread. Every caravan driver with a cart full of crystals praying to the Navigator for a safe journey could summon Llymlaen if there wasn't 3rd ingredient involved. This 3rd ingredient is almost definitely something known to Ascians and shared with those they want to summon. Why else would Lahabrea treat with the refugee Ala Mhigans if all he could do was say "get some crystals and think real hard!" There is a missing key in the summoning and it's a pivotal plot point to overall story, to disregard it is lunacy imo.

If not this, he's the son of a Syndicate member who should otherwise have some base knowledge of how a primal is summoned.

It's incredibly unlikely the Syndicate would know the finer points of summoning a Primal. If you want to argue Lolorito might from some dealings with Ascians, okay, but the claim that you get a seat on the Syndicate and within 5 years know all the secrets of Eorzea is ridiculous. Furthermore, Hildibrand was presumed dead for those 5 years--he had no contact with his father for some time before the Calamity and their reunion we bore witness to. Unless you're saying at some point between patches Hildibrand and Godbert had afternoon tea catching up and discussing the best ways to summon a Primal. Hildibrand should have cursory knowledge of Primals as he lived in Eorzea during the resurgence of summonings at the end of the Sixth Astral Era, but there is absolutely nothing that makes him an expert.

As far as Gilgamesh summoning Enkidu without an ascian, it was a chance occurrence of him wishing over a couple of boxes of crystals.

Like I said, this sort of thing should happen way more often. The best way to take Enkidu's appearance is the same way you take Gilgamesh's. It's fan-service, semi-canon, content. The Elezen inspector pretty much confirms that the whole plotline after Sil'dih shit is ridiculous and not technically possible in Eorzea.

Smaller questions should be asked instead -- is your very first meeting with Godbert considered canon? He recognizes you later in the Hildibrand storyline if you oil him up before hand in the low level quest in 2.0 vanilla.

I don't know why it would not be canon? Even Nanamo references you meeting beneath the Sultantree before she snuffs it in 2.55 if you started in Ul'dah. This question makes no sense to me. You meet Godbert, that's canon. Godbert crafts trinkets for orphans of the Calamity during Christmastime, that's canon. Godbert voted to deny the Doman refugees asylum. That's canon. Godbert summoning a giant hammer and throwing a chimera to the moon? That's semi-canon. It doesn't fit the world, but we can accept the idea Godbert is a strong martial artist who can fuck people up-- going further devolves into sheer ridiculousness.

Also all of the Sil’dih stuff cosigns the tale that Erik gives you in the MNK storyline.

Relevance? The Sil'dih storyline has existed since 1.0 where the overall plot explored in the Hildibrand quest (zombies, Ul'dah sabotage, the war) was touched on the original Miner quests in 1.0.

Spoiler: show

?

Have you seen the bottom shot in-game? As far as I know it was a release from SE for 2.2 and no one has actually seen Godbert sitting at the Fragrant Chamber when voting on the Doman refugees. However speculation is that you must complete the majority of 2.2's Hildibrand before 2.2's MSQ which I suspect not many people did.

[Raldo]

I just assumed that one of Gilgamesh's many weapons / trinkets accidentally functioned as the "key" usually bestowed by an Ascian to allow the Aether to focus into a Primal. Dude's been in and out of various worlds and the void, who knows what kind of crazy shit he keeps in those baggy pants. I also assumed that since the crystal quantity was low, that's why Enkidu was a joke to kill.

but yeah, I can get on board with the semi-canon thing too

Hildibrand went to the moon, crashed back down, and got bombed out of being a zombie, I don't really know why anyone's looking too closely at his questline for a logical explanation of anything, lol. "A wizard did it" is the only explanation I'd need.

[Rocl]

I don't really know why anyone's looking too closely at his questline for a logical explanation of anything, lol.

this is the main point i want to drive home lol, when you discuss the game's story it's not really right to bring Hildibrand into the equation

[Seha]

Sorry to intrude into this discussion...but isn't it possible the Enkidu's appearance at that moment was just coincidential and the presence of crystals there was in itself to make a joke about it being a Primal summoned by Gilgamesh?
They travel through dimensions together but sometimes get separated and Gilgamesh was actually looking for him, so maybe they finally reunited in that moment and the crystals were there to create the misunderstanding.

[Raldo]

Doesn't the box of crystals actually disappear though? It's been a while.

Like, box + Greg *FLASH OF LIGHT* Enkidu + Greg

I'd have a hard time interpreting that any other way

[Sho]

this is the main point i want to drive home lol, when you discuss the game's story it's not really right to bring Hildibrand into the equation

Pressed for time for the rest of today, so I may or may not address your previous post point by point. However, I just want to be clear that I understand the point you and others are trying to make concerning Hildibrand story.

What I can't get behind however, is some sort of inbetween option of it being semi-canon. It's either some non-related story that's not canon, similar to fan fiction, or it's canon and part of the general lore, slapstick and all.

Though I don't mind it being canon or non-canon (or semi-canon), I'd like to believe it's part of the lore fully, only that it's yet to be explained how in full.

Sorry to intrude into this discussion...but isn't it possible the Enkidu's appearance at that moment was just coincidential and the presence of crystals there was in itself to make a joke about it being a Primal summoned by Gilgamesh?
They travel through dimensions together but sometimes get separated and Gilgamesh was actually looking for him, so maybe they finally reunited in that moment and the crystals were there to create the misunderstanding.

Nah, the fact that he placed a wish while being in the vicinity of the crystals is the in-joke once you consider knowing how a primal works in the MSQ. The crystals basically manifested the image of what he wanted to see, his friend. The crystals literally disappear after he starts whining and wishing for Enkidu to be there.

[Pebe]

I'm surprised you guys haven't started dissecting the dragonsong song released, as I believe it gives us some decent insight on Saint Shiva, if we assume that Saint Shiva is the one being sung about.

Official Song Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuwltmTp9I

Lyrics on Official forums: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Interpretation

Part 1:
Children of the land, do you hear?
Echoes of truths that once rang clear.
Two souls intertwined,
One true love they did find,
Bringing land and heavens near.

My interpretation: This verse introduces to two lovers Saint Shiva and the dragon she wed, which I believe someone in this thread mentioned it may have been the Ixali's ancestor. The reason I believe these are the two lovers being referred to is the final line, "bringing land and heavens near".

Part 2:
But flames that burn full bright soon fell dark.
Memories dimmed by shadowed hearts.
In the waxing gloom,
Did wane the lover's moon,
Watching as their worlds drift apart.

My interpretation: I find this verse very interesting because it mentions how the flames fell dark and their worlds drifted apart. Keyword drifted in that they once were close together, implying man and dragon used to coexist. If that is the case, initially when Shiva wed the dragon, she was not a heretic, perhaps it brought people and dragon closer together. It is probably this and the next verse that triggered one of the Umbral Eras, you guys probably know which one as I am not as versed on my FFXIV history .

Part 3:
One soul's cry, a passion dwelling within.
Sacrifice, a final plea to her kin!
Yet this bond of hope,
By treachery was broke,
Scattering her words to the wind.

My interpretation: I believe this is the verse where Shiva ascends to Sainthood. Perhaps Shiva was not killed by man as a heretic but instead sacrificed herself to try and keep the peace between man and dragon. And for a time I believed it worked, until man turned once again on the dragons. Perhaps by Ascian intervention with the Allagans?

Part 4:
Swelling overlong, seas of blood, are a song
And death an afterthought,
To those who fight for naught.

My interpretation: "To those who fight for naught" I believe is addressing the "Children of man" who do not really have a reason to fight the dragons. As it was probably Ascian meddling who forced this entire conflict to begin.

Part 5:
A throne, lying empty...
A reign incomplete.
Alone for eternity...
A pain without cease.

My interpretation: I believe this verse is referencing the Celestial Dragon that Shiva wed. What is interesting here is the lines "A throne, lying emtpy... A reign incomplete". If the celestial dragon is being referenced, that means he is not currently leading the dragons, or in other words, was not the son of Midgarsomor that initiated the call to arms (or whatever its called for dragons). Unless its this dragon's return to his rightful place that initiated said call.

Part 6:
Children of the land answer this:
Why must you turn to empty bliss?
Why break trust?
Why turn the past to dust?
Seeking solace in the abyss.

My Interpretation: "Why break trust? Why turn the past to dust?" solidifies that dragon and man were once of one accord. "Seeking solace in the abyss" Abyss = Ascians?

Tell me why create a circle none can break?
Why must you let go the life you were bestowed?
This I'll fear I'll never know!

Never know...

Final thoughts: I think it would add another layer to this song if the one singing it was Iceheart. I am eager to here your thoughts an opinions on this.

[Pebe]

Also, the dragon @ 3:45 in the dragonsong video reminds me of Sajj'aka from ffxi Seekers Expansion, if you made it that far in the story.

[Rocl]

Also, the dragon @ 3:45 in the dragonsong video reminds me of Sajj'aka from ffxi Seekers Expansion, if you made it that far in the story.

I've avoided looking too deep into lyrics because reasons. I can give it a shot later I guess. Also the dragon you're probably talking about it has been named, and his name is Hraesvelgr.