Official global alpha start date: November 28th.

[Enkidu]

Ahh come on guys, XI had some good quests. Some job quests were interesting, especially just a few months post release because you'd get giant groups of people together for them. There were some more story oriented quests as well. Yeah most of them were the typical "go get X for me and I'll give you Y", but there was some good with the bad! XIV 1.0 was just all around bad though, so really anything they do will make the game better.

I don't know what goes on in the OF that is giving everyone such hate for XI, but come on - it was a great game and if you took XI and reskinned it with a new world/quests/balance/etc... it would have still been vastly superior to XIV 1.0. Would it be a fail MMO, yeah of course, but XIV was just so bad.

[blythe]

I find some people's hate for everything XI-related confusing given that launch XIV was so terrible precisely because it tried so hard to not be like XI. 1.0 became remotely playable by the end by slowly adding back some of the basic MMO mechanics that were somehow lost in the transition to XIV.

Now obviously it's 2012 now and the genre has changed - FFXI never was and certainly shouldn't be the standard bearer for these devs. But If 2.0 ends up being terrible it is not going to be because they're borrowing from XI. Aside from some OF mouth breathers I don't see how anyone could think that's a possibility.

[Gokulo]

It's because people want to bring back what was bad in XI. I don't think it's hard to understand why people rage when these idiots suggest going back to XI system instead of the quest progression they are planning now.

[blythe]

It's because people want to bring back what was bad in XI. I don't think it's hard to understand why people rage when these idiots suggest going back to XI system instead of the quest progression they are planning now.

And I think it's a mistake to assume that anything different from XI is better. I mean, wasn't the entire concept behind Tanaka 1.0 supposed to be quest-based progression? (Levequests = quest hubs). And look how that turned out. Now I'm in the alpha and I am well aware that 2.0 is different and much, much better. I just think the knee jerk reaction to anyone suggesting anything from XI was less than terrible is faddish and getting a bit tired. I mean did I see someone in this thread honestly try to argue that being able to level any job on one character was a bad thing?

[Kelenae]

I find some people's hate for everything XI-related confusing given that launch XIV was so terrible precisely because it tried so hard to not be like XI. 1.0 became remotely playable by the end by slowly adding back some of the basic MMO mechanics that were somehow lost in the transition to XIV.

Now obviously it's 2012 now and the genre has changed - FFXI never was and certainly shouldn't be the standard bearer for these devs. But If 2.0 ends up being terrible it is not going to be because they're borrowing from XI. Aside from some OF mouth breathers I don't see how anyone could think that's a possibility.

We arent hating on FFXI just to hate it. We dont want the bad that was in FFXI but the good (There were SOME good stuff).

[Lucavi]

Ahh come on guys, XI had some good quests. Some job quests were interesting, especially just a few months post release because you'd get giant groups of people together for them.

XI had good cutscenes, not quests. I seriously just explained XI's questing system in a nutshell. Go here, talk to XXX or ???, something spawns, kill it, then go talk to another XXX to advance the quest. That's the joke, and that's the quest system.

I'm not gonna bash what XI got right, like the cutscenes. Raogrimm is still a boss to this very day, but XI didn't have some revolutionary quest system, or even a fun quest system. JP midnight was not fun. 5 lizard eggs was not fun. Searching around popping ton of sneak/inviz while looking for a ??? was not fun.

@Blythe: There's really no point in responding to anything you're saying because you've flat out stated that you think its a mistake to assume anything that isn't from XI is better than XI. There's literally nothing to respond to with that, if that's how you feel about the issue.

I'll wait for someone else to post before I actually respond. It won't be a complete waste of my fingers at that point.

[blythe]

@Blythe: There's really no point in responding to anything you're saying because you've flat out stated that you think its a mistake to assume anything that isn't from XI is better than XI. There's literally nothing to respond to with that, if that's how you feel about the issue.

I'll wait for someone else to post before I actually respond. It won't be a complete waste of my fingers at that point.

I just want to point out a perfect example of someone who apparently thinks there was not a single positive game mechanic in XI that could be translated to a new MMO. I don't have any problem with reasonable people who want to keep the shittier gameplay elements from XI out of the game, but keep in mind people like this exist too apparently.

[Lucavi]

You aren't in the alpha, are you? If you aren't, I can... somewhat understand why you'd make such a foolish comment, as you don't have access to the actual forum that matters right now, or of my posts issued towards the devs and other posters there. Clearly, though, you know what you're talking about, and I do not, even after directly quoting you in your statement that things -not- in XI aren't necessarily better than what -was- in XI, a statement that, in of itself, constitutes fear-mongering of the highest level.

[Alkar]

The quest system was maybe good for its time but you can't expect people to digest:
1- Talking to every NPC in sight hoping it has a quest (and that you meet the amount of fame required to even unlock said quest);
2- Getting vague clues about where to go, what to do and what to kill in order to complete the quest;
3- Having to run through entire zones to look for the appropriate ??? spot or fishing pond;
4- Giving up and looking through a wiki for the walkthrough;
5- Shitty rewards.
It doesn't work that way nowadays.
There were quests done right (job quests pre-ToAU still sucked) but the majority was nothing but a chore.
ARR uses quests to guide you through the game like other MMOs do and at the same time reward you with exp and other things. There are people on the OF comparing these low level quests to endgame content ffs, that's just retarded on so many levels.

[blythe]

You aren't in the alpha, are you? If you aren't, I can... somewhat understand why you'd make such a foolish comment, as you don't have access to the actual forum that matters right now, or of my posts issued towards the devs and other posters there. Clearly, though, you know what you're talking about, and I do not, even after directly quoting you in your statement that things -not- in XI aren't necessarily better than what -was- in XI, a statement that, in of itself, constitutes fear-mongering of the highest level.

Um, I'm definitely in the alpha and have been reading the forums.

Read your post again because I think you might be confused (that would make more sense than you actually believing your post). You said that you disagree with me because I don't think it's right to assume that all non-XI things are automatically better than XI things. How is it fear-mongering to acknowledge that SOME things were done well in XI?

[Lucavi]

Its fear-mongering to assume that XI's systems could potentially be the be-all end-all of design, simply because what exists outside of XI may not have been better than what was. That's absolute fear-mongering because you're implying that things shouldn't be brought in from other games because they may or may not be better than what exists in XI. Essentially, you're promoting stagnation: you're promoting people to stay inside the house because what exists outside of the house may not be better than what exists within it.

If you can't see how that's fear-mongering, I don't know what to tell you. SE needs far less of you, that's for sure, if that's your stance.

As for the inane assumption that I believe that nothing good came from XI simply because I thought the quest system is trash compared to what's come after it, you should probably take another look at my above post about how I absolutely enjoyed the cutscenes. I needn't say more about what I liked about XI, as that statement above blows your preposterous assertion right out of the water.

Try a little harder next time.

[blythe]

Its fear-mongering to assume that XI's systems could potentially be the be-all end-all of design, simply because what exists outside of XI may not have been better than what was. That's absolute fear-mongering because you're implying that things shouldn't be brought in from other games because they may or may not be better than what exists in XI. Essentially, you're promoting stagnation: you're promoting people to stay inside the house because what exists outside of the house may not be better than what exists within it.

If you can't see how that's fear-mongering, I don't know what to tell you. SE needs far less of you, that's for sure, if that's your stance.

As for the inane assumption that I believe that nothing good came from XI simply because I thought the quest system is trash compared to what's come after it, you should probably take another look at my above post about how I absolutely enjoyed the cutscenes. I needn't say more about what I liked about XI, as that statement above blows your preposterous assertion right out of the water.

Try a little harder next time.

What are you even talking about? Where did I ever say that the devs shouldn't take ideas from other games?

All I said is that XI did some things well, and they shouldn't be afraid to use those ideas again if they worked well. If anything, it sounds like you're the one fear-mongering as you feel like taking ANY guidance from FFXI is a mistake.

How does that in anyway exclude taking good ideas from modern MMOs? They need to do what's best for the game, period. In some cases they'll borrow from WoW, TERA, Rift, etc. and sometimes they'll borrow from FFXI. How is this controversial, lol

[Lucavi]

/Sigh...

Did you or did you not say this?

And I think it's a mistake to assume that anything different from XI is better.

Now, do you understand what this means? Do you understand what you wrote actually means? If you do, and I don't think you do, then it means that my comments about you were correct.

You're free to debate, but the evidence is what it is.

Nobody here is advocating that SE takes nothing from XI. Not one person here said this, so I don't even know why you assumed as such. What we're advocating is for SE to continue to ignore those on the Alpha forums who want to strike everything that wasn't in XI from 2.0. That's it.

You should take a little more time to read before you get so defensive about XI. If you had, you wouldn't have asserted that I enjoyed nothing about XI, because you'd have read my posts above, and i wouldn't have had to call you out on it.

[blythe]

/Sigh...

Did you or did you not say this?



Now, do you understand what this means? Do you understand what you wrote actually means? If you do, and I don't think you do, then it means that my comments about you were correct.

You're free to debate, but the evidence is what it is.

Yes, I think it's a mistake to assume that just because something is different from XI, that it's automatically going to be better.

Some things in other games are better than XI, and some things aren't.

I think you're having some reading comprehension difficulty here...

[Lucavi]

No one said automatically better. You didn't say "automatically" better. You said better. Don't add in words that weren't there, because additional words changes the context of what you wrote.

Its silly one way or another. If you're afraid to introduce new things because of what you personally perceive could or couldn't be better, you aren't going to modernize the game, and if you don't modernize the game, its going to flop. If it flops again, its game over, and that is that. Once again, I'm glad that Yoshi-P isn't adopting your mentality, because the game certainly wouldn't be shaping up to be as solid as it could be if he was fretting over what could and couldn't be better from some other game instead of trying things out and taking feedback from the changes, like he is.

[blythe]

No one said automatically better. You didn't say "automatically" better. You said better. Don't add in words that weren't there, because additional words changes the context of what you wrote.

Even with the original sentence, the meaning is the same. Serious question, is English not your first language? Not trying to be judgmental, I just get the sense you're either trying not to understand or are having trouble doing so.

edit: I don't know who or what you're responding to at this point since no one in this thread has said anything to which your replies would be appropriate.

[shidobu]

/Sigh...

Did you or did you not say this?

with your avatar i kinda lol'ed

[Enkidu]

What quest systems did you find enjoyable, Lucavi? I can't think of any off the top of my head that are so vastly different. The key to XI's questing was not that it was some great questing system, there were tons of flaws, but just that some of the quest lines told great stories and were just more then you'd get from many other MMO's past and present. Levequests in XIV essentially abandoned that system in favor of a ridiculously lowbrow quest spamming system that offered nothing more then exp/gil/random rewards. It felt more like a self-administration model for chimpanzee's then it did a game.

I think you may be carrying over some of your OF vitriol into this thread. Relax, nobody here thinks XIV should have been a carbon-copy of XI. All we're saying is that instead of assuming "newer is always better", the devs take a step back and take a look at what has worked well in XI and other successful MMO's - then improve on those things.

[Gokulo]

Relax, nobody here thinks XIV should have been a carbon-copy of XI.

The whole discussion turned shitty because while we complained that people on OF want to bring bad stuff from XI back, others started going "C'mon, you can't be saying the whole of XI was bad".

See, that's retarded.

[Lucavi]

with your avatar i kinda lol'ed

"EXPLAIN THIS~!!"

"HOLD IT!"

@Enkidu: I consider the initial wrathgate questline to be superior to most any quest XI had to offer, both in story and in what they actually had you doing. I'd say the same for the Death Knight opening chains. I don't remember many quests in XI where I rode on a dragon, bombing the shit out of churches and cities, while serving as the pawn of the expansion's Big Bad. I also don't remember having to shuffle into a Faction city, essentially groveling for mercy as NPC villagers pelted me with trash and spit at me. That was a pretty powerful moment, even though, at the time, I just wanted to get my grubby mitts on my Death Knight in some PVP action.

Trust me, I get it, XI told a good story, and I've already said that about a billion times. But the quest that lead into the story were nothing special. Ever. You went here, touched a ???, fought something, claimed something off of what you fought, then talked to a NPC and watched a few CSes along the way. The CSes were typically what was the good part, not the quest design in of itself.

I don't know what its going to take to get that through, but thankfully I don't have to where it counts: in Yoshi-P's brain.