Riots in Egypt over Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Morsi declaring dictatorial powers

[Plow]

Sorry, I assumed it was clear I meant leaders of Muslim religious groups, put into positions of political power. Seeing how that's what we're talking about. Guess not.

[Kuya]

Oh, okay. That's better i guess. Muslims are only secret fascists when they are put into positions of power.

[Plow]

No, really. I'm referring to the idea that you can vote in a person whose major affiliation is a group founded in a belief in tyrannical dictatorship so extreme it details as law how you bathe, and get a legitimate democracy. I really thought that was clear, I didn't mean to imply "any muslim in power is bound to do bad things," by any means.

[Plow]

I mean, I'm not trying to go all "sharia law is taking over america!" We're discussing a group that does legitimately and openly believe in it and seek to spread it throughout the world.

[Kuya]

No, it wasn't clear, but thanks for clarifying. Although i don't know where you got this from:

major affiliation is a group founded in a belief in tyrannical dictatorship

Maybe you were just being vague and shrill again.

[Plow]

lolwiki

The Brotherhood's credo was and is, "Allah is our objective; the Quran is our law, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations." Its most famous slogan, used worldwide, is "Islam is the solution."

wiki source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12313405

[Kuya]

Yes, the same wiki source also mentions that they publically claim to support democracy (i hope so, since they participate in it). I guess you really are going with the secret fascists angle, aren't you?

[Plow]

While the Ikhwan say that they support democratic principles, one of its stated aims is to create a state ruled by Islamic law, or Sharia. Its most famous slogan, used worldwide, is: "Islam is the solution".

Gee Kuya, why didn't you quote it instead of just referring to it?

[Kuya]

Well i suppose the Muslim Brotherhood didn't count on Plow discovering their nefarious plot to publically declare support for democracy while secretly wanting a dictatorship. Although it remains to be seen whether plow is referring to a dictatorship or a theocracy, or whether he thinks both mean the same thing, Iran not withstanding. It also remains to be seen whether plow will ever make a complete argument without forcing the viewer to have to squeeze it out of him.

Anyway, plowness aside; i think blaming the fact that Morsi is from the Muslim Brotherhood on his power grab is ridiculous given the long history of dictatorships Egypt possesses. It's gonna be up to egyptians themselves whether they are going to allow this long tradition to continue or whether they will resist it, as they are resisting now. I've always found the Muslim Brotherhood hysteria that some in the West have to be incredibly annoying.

[Plow]

did you know that it's not a secret plot when it's your stated goal?

[Correction]

I wonder what Plow's theory on African strongmen is.

[Salodin]

Confused how the brotherhood can support democracy while at the same time promoting law based on the Quran which is absolute.

[archibaldcrane]

OP article fails to mention that all the judges were Mubarak appointees and apparently were trying to stop any reforms from happening.

[Alarial]

Confused how the brotherhood can support democracy while at the same time promoting law based on the Quran which is absolute.

Because the brotherhood fully supports the people voting for what they want the government to do, as long as what they vote for is exactly in line with the Quran.

Also, @Kuya: I don't think Plow or anyone is saying that Mubarak wasn't a dictator simply because he was a secularist. They're just examining the motivating factors behind Morsi's power grab. And while "people in general will seize power when the opportunity arrises", Morsi's power grab goes far beyond even Mubarak's powers, and I think we can all agree the establishment of a ultra-conservative theocracy in Egypt would result in a nation-state that is far worse than it was pre-revolution, which is a tragedy.

[Ashmada]

The OP and plow's post (theocratic politics) makes it seem like Morsi being part of the Muslim Brotherhood has anything to do with his power grab. Mubarak, and the dictators before him were secular and regularly attacked the Muslim Brotherhood.

Because it does.
Mubarak being a (relatively) secular dictator changes nothing to the theocratic aspirations of the brotherhood. They make no secret of those.

Ever since the election, the debate wasn't wether Morsi'd seek complete hegemony, but when.
Now, it becomes a question of whether the Egyptian people can muster the strength to rise up again or not.

[Kuya]

I think some of you have a very intense desire to equate theocracy with fascism or dictatorship. A theocracy doesn't necessarily have to be a dictatorship. Iran is not a dictatorship. While it pains me to have to defend religious conservatives, it also annoys me to see people miss the forest for the trees because one of the trees looked religious and we hate our religion here in BG. Egypt's long history with dictatorships is a better explanation for Morsi's power grab than blaming it on theocracy.

[Salodin]

Even though the publicly stated purpose of the brotherhood is to make sharia law in his country a reality?

Unless you're saying that's just a front so he can maintain dictatorship.

[archibaldcrane]

I think it's funny that everyone is claiming that he should've let Mubarak-era obstructionist judges fuck up his attempts at a new constitution. What's the point of arab spring if the old guard is still around to fuck up the reforms?

[Ashmada]

@Kuya Stricto senso, no, Iran is not dictatorial. They do elect their president (who can't wipe his arse without ayatollah approval) and indirectly elect their supreme ayatollah.
But it's hardly a free society, either.
By such a strict definition, Putinist Russia is a democracy as well. Methinks you're not fooled by those appearances in either case and merely being intentionally obtuse.


On another note, you do not get to accuse others of amalgamation when you seem to equate relligion and theocracy. That is where you should try to impart nuance, not between theocracy and dictatorship.

[Kuya]

@Kuya Stricto senso, no, Iran is not dictatorial. They do elect their president (who can't wipe his arse without ayatollah approval) and indirectly elect their supreme ayatollah.
But it's hardly a free society, either.
By such a strict definition, Putinist Russia is a democracy as well. Methinks you're not fooled by those appearances in either case and merely being intentionally obtuse.


On another note, you do not get to accuse others of amalgamation when you seem to equate relligion and theocracy. That is where you should try to impart nuance, not between theocracy and dictatorship.

Regardless of your nit picking, i will focus on the real meat of the argument: the argument that Morsi's actions are motivated by him being highly religious is entirely unconvincing given the very real and concrete political history of Egypt.