Michigan joins 23 other states in passing union-busting laws

[Kalmado]

Oh, I know Swampy's our resident ultracapitalist, I just don't get that particular sentence. "Unions are an outgrowth of not having to earn their money"?
Maybe my english isn't as good as I thought, but, to me, that sounds like gibberish.

I feel the same whenever having a conversation regarding business with a diehard republican.

[Kalmado]

I believe the context of swamps post is the "makers vs takers" talking point. Unions are for the takers, the moochers, the underclass minority that obeezy promised gifts to. A bunch of do-nothings will naturally team up against their job creator to demand more compensation, a weekend, or health benefits.

How dare the bloodline of companies try to get ahead and not just the CEO!

[BaneTheBrawler]

if they cant afford bread, why don't they just buy cake? lazy assholes.

[Ashmada]

Careful, Bane, remember what happened next.

[Correction]

if they cant afford bread, why don't they just buy cake? lazy assholes.

Soda meet keyboard.

[guartz]

Trade unions should, no, MUST be voluntary. A trade union is itself not above corruption, unlike the corporations it serves and therefore must be subject to market forces. Artificially monopolizing the labor market will only serve to restrict supply of labor in it's own field, regardless of whom it may harm. Compulsory membership is not needed, if a union is good it will have volunteers.

..and besides, if your job skillset requirement is a week of training you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of unionization.

[ringthree]

Trade unions should, no, MUST be voluntary. A trade union is itself not above corruption, unlike the corporations it serves and therefore must be subject to market forces. Artificially monopolizing the labor market will only serve to restrict supply of labor in it's own field, regardless of whom it may harm. Compulsory membership is not needed, if a union is good it will have volunteers.

..and besides, if your job skillset requirement is a week of training you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of unionization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

[Ksandra]

..and besides, if your job skillset requirement is a week of training you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of unionization.

why?


you know...most of those women who died in fires in unsafe factories back in the day I bet didn't have PHDs. Unions aren't just about getting as many vacation days as possible.

[Correction]

..and besides, if your job skillset requirement is a week of training you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of unionization.

Unions are designed to protect workers who would otherwise be seen as disposable by their employers. Thus they're a much better deal for less skilled labor, like an assembly line worker, than very highly skilled labor, like a software engineer. Are you an idiot?

[guartz]

Yes, but the government has taken over many of these roles unions would have otherwise provided. (has provided) How is any of this relevant with OSHA, minimum wage, work hours/overtime laws and soon to come full force obamacare? While it may have been relevant before, what role does a union play today, in 2012?

[Correction]

Yes, but the government has taken over many of these roles unions would have otherwise provided. (has provided) How is any of this relevant with OSHA, minimum wage, work hours/overtime laws and soon to come full force obamacare? While it may have been relevant before, what role does a union play today, in 2012?

None of those things would exist without substantial pressure from trade unions. If the unions lose power, what's to stop corporations from spending unlimited amounts of money dismantling those protections? Did they all have a Whoville Christmas moment and now their hearts are five times bigger?

[ringthree]

Yes, but the government has taken over many of these roles unions would have otherwise provided. (has provided) How is any of this relevant with OSHA, minimum wage, work hours/overtime laws and soon to come full force obamacare? While it may have been relevant before, what role does a union play today, in 2012?

Those are all marginal issues compared to the main reason unions exist today, which is to negotiate pay.

[Pirian]

Yes, but the government has taken over many of these roles unions would have otherwise provided. (has provided) How is any of this relevant with OSHA, minimum wage, work hours/overtime laws and soon to come full force obamacare? While it may have been relevant before, what role does a union play today, in 2012?

Because while most of a union's function may no longer be necessary corporate lobbyist are never going to go away, and they will continue to chip away at what has been established.

[guartz]

That's an entirely different argument. Highly speculative, considering how successful United States has been in rescinding social benefits, it's quite safe to assume those protections for employees are safe. Nor does it demonstrate why compulsory union membership is necessary or why unskilled easily replaceable workers should expect bargaining powers.

[Ksandra]

That's an entirely different argument. Highly speculative, considering how successful United States has been in rescinding social benefits, it's quite safe to assume those protections for employees are safe.

For now. That can easily change.

why unskilled easily replaceable workers should expect bargaining powers.

for the same reasons we have lawyers. Unions know how to fight for what's right, and unskilled worker probably doesn't.

[guartz]

Those are all marginal issues compared to the main reason unions exist today, which is to negotiate pay.

Right, that's what I'm getting at. Compulsory membership to a union to negotiate wage/benefits for skilled workers is not necessary, in my opinion at least. heh

[guartz]

for the same reasons we have lawyers. Unions know how to fight for what's right, and unskilled worker probably doesn't.

So who decides what walmart employee should be paid? Some union lawyer?

[ringthree]

That's an entirely different argument. Highly speculative, considering how successful United States has been in rescinding social benefits, it's quite safe to assume those protections for employees are safe. Nor does it demonstrate why compulsory union membership is necessary or why unskilled easily replaceable workers should expect bargaining powers.

Yeah, there is no movement toward deregulation in the US right now... :/

[Pirian]

That's an entirely different argument. Highly speculative, considering how successful United States has been in rescinding social benefits, it's quite safe to assume those protections for employees are safe. Nor does it demonstrate why compulsory union membership is necessary or why unskilled easily replaceable workers should expect bargaining powers.

What? It's not speculative at all. History has shown time and again that the only rights you have and keep are those you fight for

[Ksandra]

So who decides what walmart employee should be paid? Some union lawyer?

actually, Walmart is a good description of what a lot of us are saying in this thread. Walmart employees get shit for wages and had no union to support them. There is sort of a mini-union that was created because of this. Can you imagine a walmart cashier walking up to the CEOs door and trying to negotiate? possible, but highly improbable. Look how ineffective their strike was though on black friday. Because it is not all walmart workers, did anyone even notice? very few, and walmart did better in sales this year than last year. If that union was required, there is no doubt a country-wide strike would have caused a shitstorm.

Unions help with organization, and they are (usually) led by people that know how to get what their members need.