Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Lyltia]

And I've already said several times that killing both gears at all is not the pop condition, as I've seen the NM pop after killing one of the two. No need to go all crazy on him.

[Slycer]

As I said in a previous post, there hasn't been a single theory that hasn't been shot down by the account of at least one other person for the pop condition of that Gear on 4F. The only thing we know for sure is that killing (at least one of) the gears is somehow involved. Killing stuff on 3F... time from porting to killing... time to kill... time between kills... killshot type... all have been shot down by one or more accounts. So... unless someone has some totally new ideas, the only thing we really can do is review the old ideas, review the accounts that disproved the ideas, and try to figure out what hasn't been tested yet.

There's always the possibility that it's truly random, but I'd be hesitant to accept that after just a couple of weeks.

I mean... and just throwing total randomness out there... it could be something like... on 4 days of the week only the east NM pops and on the other 4 only the west NM pops. Or maybe time related... like 6-18 one pops, 18-6 the other pops....

Edit: Actually, if we can start compiling pop/no-pop instances and get some handle on the frequency of popping, maybe that can guide us in the right direction. For example, if we're seeing that the gears are popping approximately 50% of the time, it could indicate that something like my suggestion above is true. I can tell you that I've done 4 Bhaflau runs and gotten gears to pop on 2 of them with nothing noticeably different across the 4 runs.

[NynJa]

I've also said that I killed them 11 sec apart and it spawned, where did I say its a timed kill? Sorry for going through and finding reference posts so people stop rehashing the same ideas.

Also, the game can rarely bug out when there are multiple actions at once, so what looks like a WS kill, may not be a WS kill. I'm not going to attempt to hunt these pictures down, because I have no idea how I would pull it off, but I hope atleast one person can back me on this one, like the aspir "kill" that loads up azure or what not, just because it landed as a melee strike did.

My working theory right now is that it has to be the same type of killshot. If someone can say "I killed those two gears with definite white damage / a timed aoe WS and it didnt spawn", then its shot down.

[Slycer]

According to JP wiki, the pop condition for the Cerberus rampart in 4F Bhaflau is to kill Long-Bowed Chariot and the three Archaic Gears by the teleport room (not just the three Archaic Gears). Can anyone reject this theory? Perhaps LBC needs to be killed before the doors are opened, not sure.

Having had the rampart pop killing the three gears and NOT LBC, or having had the rampart not pop after killing LBC, then opening the door and killing the three gears, would both be ways to reject this theory. I can't reject the theory since every run I've done my group has killed LBC before opening the door, then killed the 3 gears, and gotten Cerb rampart to pop.

[NynJa]

Does it not mention anything about 2 minutes?

Proceeded to LBC, and since I aggroed it, killed it easily enough (does sneak work to get by this?) ..Acros.. Finally, killed the triple gears but rampart didn't spawn.

Floor 4: I got to this floor in about 47~48 minutes. Did both single gears, killing them almost simultaneously and got gear NM to pop (1 ritualistic). Killed LBC and got a cotton pouch, useless NM indeed! ..Acros... I opened the door around 1:39AM to spawn the 3 gears and ran straight to the closest gear and proceeded to kill them. I think I killed the last one within 2.5 minutes or so, I have time stamps.

Two posts saying they killed LBC and the gears, but rampart didnt spawn.

I cant find any post from someone saying they didnt kill LBC lol

[Slycer]

It doesn't mention anything about kill speed, no. It just says kill the chariot (must be LBC as its the only chariot there) and the 3 Archaic Gears to spawn the rampart. Doesn't say whether you need to kill LBC before you open the door, but there'd be no reason not to since you'd have to backtrack across half the floor. But, if the door is involved, skipping LBC to kill the 3 Gears, seeing no pop on Rampart, then coming back to kill LBC and checking for rampart may not be a valid way to test.

Edit: ok, JP wiki failin'. Just figured I'd post it since I hadn't seen anyone suggest that it was a combination of LBC and Gears.

[NynJa]

it seems like a pretty shitty thing to willlingly test. If SalvII was fully implemented on the test server, I'd be willing to go try it there. I'd rather not risk skimping out on a linen though.

[Obsidian]

According to JP wiki, the pop condition for the Cerberus rampart in 4F Bhaflau is to kill Long-Bowed Chariot and the three Archaic Gears by the teleport room (not just the three Archaic Gears). Can anyone reject this theory? Perhaps LBC needs to be killed before the doors are opened, not sure.

Having had the rampart pop killing the three gears and NOT LBC, or having had the rampart not pop after killing LBC, then opening the door and killing the three gears, would both be ways to reject this theory. I can't reject the theory since every run I've done my group has killed LBC before opening the door, then killed the 3 gears, and gotten Cerb rampart to pop.

Can't reject, but can confirm that we always kill the chariot, and always get the Cerb Rampart to pop after killing the three triple gears in its room. Always before the door is opened, as well.

[Taint]

Its not same damage type.

We ported up and killed them both with WSs (Kaiten both kills) in under 30 min. (70min left) I took SSs for reference, if those would help.

Edit: Just read your other post. Could possibly be a Melee kill glitch, I've seen that as well, both were taken from ~30-0% with the WS, but could still be a rogue Melee swing I guess.

[NynJa]

Its not same damage type.

We ported up and killed them both with WSs (Kaiten both kills) in under 30 min. (70min left) I took SSs for reference, if those would help.

Edit: Just read your other post. Could possibly be a Melee kill glitch, I've seen that as well, both were taken from ~30-0% with the WS, but could still be a rogue Melee swing I guess.

Thats both WS kills though.

Atleast I've got someone reputable backing that killtype can glitch, thank god lol. From here on out, why doesnt everyone just purposely kill both gears with the same kill method (I guess damage type is a bad word since that implies piercing, slashing, magic, blunt), either obvious white damage (no debuffing, no WSing, no stunning, no weapon bash, nothing past 10%), or a clear WS killshot without a potential rogue melee strike until the NM doesnt spawn.


I dont think its a 50/50 split chance, SE purposefully adjusted mad bomber back in the day for that very reason.

[Nekradarken]

And I've already said several times that killing both gears at all is not the pop condition, as I've seen the NM pop after killing one of the two. No need to go all crazy on him.

In one of your posts you mentioned that the NM pop when you were casting holy2 on the 2nd gear. Did your holy2 killed the gear? Any chances that you might be wearing impatiens?

[Slycer]

I dont think its a 50/50 split chance, SE purposefully adjusted mad bomber back in the day for that very reason.

Wasn't trying to say it's 50/50 - I'm saying that if we take a look through all our results and see that the NM is popping 50% of the time, then maybe there's a more general condition that allows only one of the two sides to pop an NM at any given time (day-based, time-based, or whatever else). Like the east gear only pops on fire/earth/water/wind and west only pops on ice/lightning/light/dark... or whatever (I'm not saying this particular example is the case, just suggesting a possibility that would be represented by a ~50% pop rate of the NM all else being equal).

[Obsidian]

Thats both WS kills though.

Atleast I've got someone reputable backing that killtype can glitch, thank god lol. From here on out, why doesnt everyone just purposely kill both gears with the same kill method (I guess damage type is a bad word since that implies piercing, slashing, magic, blunt), either obvious white damage (no debuffing, no WSing, no stunning, no weapon bash, nothing past 10%), or a clear WS killshot without a potential rogue melee strike until the NM doesnt spawn.


I dont think its a 50/50 split chance, SE purposefully adjusted mad bomber back in the day for that very reason.

He's saying he killed them both with Kaiten and it didn't pop.

[NynJa]

Anything is worth looking into at this point, but I dont think SE would code it to lock people out of farming what they want to farm just by chance. I dont believe any other NM in SalvII (or even I) works like that.

[NynJa]

He's saying he killed them both with Kaiten and it didn't pop.

Sorry, I took it as "it spawned", since he didnt mention that it didnt spawn in the post But now reading it in a "it didnt spawn" state, it makes total sense lol.

And I've already said several times that killing both gears at all is not the pop condition, as I've seen the NM pop after killing one of the two. No need to go all crazy on him.

Can anyone confirm this ever happening? Both times the NM spawned, it took a good 2-3 seconds, even the goblin isnt instant. I'd finish my attacking/WS animations, put weapons away, then it would spawn.

[Kidnoftle]

Haven't seen killing a single gear popping 4f but for the record they do spawn pretty much on the death of condition monsters; maybe your latency is fucked?

[Magitek]

I can attest to the chariot (it's LBC, not LAC btw as I previously posted lol, but who cares we all know it's the piece of shit Homing missile one ) having no influence on 4th floor NQ cerb pop seeing how I used to skip it (just kite it back and it'll de-aggro you after awhile). As a matter of fact, I'll test this again to confirm it... seeing how I did not kill the triple gears in less than 2 minutes in the quotes Nynja posted anyways.

[Lyltia]

I own zero Quickcast gear, Holy II did not kill it, gear was at 1% when the other popped. I've discounted the possibility of a latency issue because I've never seen it apply different amounts of lag to different targets; ergo, if the gear actually did die when I cast (which it didn't, melee got killshot), why wouldn't the appearance of the gear NM lag as well?

I suppose anything is possible, including a glitch, but I highly doubt lag or latency had anything to do with it.

I can tell you that I've done 4 Bhaflau runs and gotten gears to pop on 2 of them with nothing noticeably different across the 4 runs.

Ditto, and we've been running Bhaflau the exact same way for the past 2 weeks and change.

[suji]

Problem with SCH is needing JAs and/or SJ unlocks to make it actually useful. Not really a big issue but can be annoying having no erase/nas until JA or haste/etc until SJ.

We just give our SCH the first JA/SJ and we haven't had any trouble with running out of time or anything. Only HQ boss we haven't beaten so far is ZR, MNK THF SCH setup, but we have yet to try that zone at all since we're targeting loot from the others first.

btw, HQ Dvergr in AR2 actually ran out of MP the other night. Not sure if you guys have seen this. I got hit with an unlucky Thunder5 before the SCH could get the cackled junk off, died to a ~2550 dmg nuke and had to kite, so it was casting for a good extra 5mins (I actually had ~2750 max HP with a few dt- slots filled so I really didn't expect to die). By the time I unweakened and re-engaged, it had no more MP and just used TP moves.

[pooter01]

I can attest to the chariot (it's LAC, not LBC btw as I previously posted lol, but who cares we all know it's the piece of shit Homing missile one ) having no influence on 4th floor NQ cerb pop seeing how I used to skip it (just kite it back and it'll de-aggro you after awhile). As a matter of fact, I'll test this again to confirm it... seeing how I did not kill the triple gears in less than 2 minutes in the quotes Nynja posted anyways.

I can confirm this as well, Completely skipped chariot(no agro) and still spawned cerb rampart.