Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Protey]

I don't use counterstance on the bosses at all. Counterstance tanking has only ever been worth it on targets with low attack rates* or ones that have Elegy and/or Slow II on them (or sub NIN).

i go mnk/war, don't put elegy or slow on bosses and have no problem with counterstance tanking. if you have capped counter, they are a joke. going /nin and/or not using counterstance will significantly lower your damage/time output. the only problem i have had was the rare double crit > sulfurous breath (only happened once in 3 weeks of runs) and the triple attack from HQ hydra all unluckily getting through counter (only happened once). now you might want to justify going /nin because of that, but even going /nin things can go wrong and you die. the rarity of dieing while going /war doesn't merit the loss of damage/time output and therefore less time to farm alex.

[Protey]

I agree with Cairthenn here.

I have just as hard a time seeing how people are dying as you do but it's pretty clear from posts in this thread that they are. You personally are not dying so carrying on doing whatever you want. However, some people are dying and for those people Cair is saying that changing to a lower risk strategy is probably required.

It's like I never use PDT or Hybrid gear in Salvage because I've never needed it and have never died as a result of not using it. However there are other people in this thread (and my LS) who swear by it because they die without it. Just by me going 'But I don't use PDT/Hybrid and never die!' doesn't magically mean they now don't die without too.

if people are that concerned, go full damage gear until about 25% then switch to hybrid gear, because before then they are considerably weak and rarely use a TP move. it is easy to get them down to 25% in a very short amount of time.

[pooter01]

going /nin and/or not using counterstance will significantly lower your damage/time output.

I heard once that not using food will do the same thing. just sayin'

All joking aside, counterstance should be enough to keep you alive under most circumstances, and if it works for you, by all means continue using it. if you feel it's needed to not counterstance, don't counterstance, if you feel the need to /nin, then /nin. I've personally been screwed over by counters on a few occasions already, so i'm personally going to stop using it for a bit. Simply letting others that have the same problem know that it is an option. Part of it I think is we use a sch and not a whm. Sch seems to prefer more small amounts of dmg, while whm can deal with the huge spikes more easily.

@BR stone. yeah, had that happen once and never going to let it happen again >.> at the very least don't have your melee line up so only one gets stoned.

[Fake]

I agree with Cairthenn here.

I have just as hard a time seeing how people are dying as you do but it's pretty clear from posts in this thread that they are. You personally are not dying so carrying on doing whatever you want. However, some people are dying and for those people Cair is saying that changing to a lower risk strategy is probably required.

It's like I never use PDT or Hybrid gear in Salvage because I've never needed it and have never died as a result of not using it. However there are other people in this thread (and my LS) who swear by it because they die without it. Just by me going 'But I don't use PDT/Hybrid and never die!' doesn't magically mean they now don't die without too.

If you are taking 3-4~ people then yes, I can see a benefit to not using CS because you should have a second healer/refresh job in that setup, if I don't CS on cerb or hydra (if it uses bulwark repeatedly) then there is a good chance I could run out of mp with just a whm/thf to cure me. I do use PDT/MDT and hybrid gear on bosses (hybrid only for hydra), you can macro in the relevant set before any of the dangerous moves go off anyway.

If you have 2 melees you are already reducing a ton of the benefit from CS and you are still making the same tradeoff for a much smaller gain, if you are bringing a single melee with no bard (or main heal sch since) I can't see how CS is making fights any riskier because they will draw out longer and you will start to suffer a loss of mp over time.

[Cairthenn]

i go mnk/war, don't put elegy or slow on bosses

Wow good for you, me too. I even use rancor collar and don't use hybrid builds! I'm offering advice for people who are having problems, not people who aren't.

[Slycer]

Does anyone know if enemies can have Occult Acumen? I was kiting Bloodthirsty Dvergr for a brief period of time while our DD dc'ed and I noticed that after casting a few nukes on me he randomly used Necrobane (didn't hit any targets). Nobody was meleeing (or nuking or anything else that feeds TP) and he didn't get any melee attacks off, so he either has Occult Acumen or Regain. Also, in case nobody else has noticed, Bloodthirsty Dvergr (and maybe the Dvergr on the floor before) casts spells at Chainspell speed and will act as if Chainspell is active if the hate target moves out of melee range (it will cast spells repeatedly at Chainspell speed with minimal delay between them and only move closer a little at a time between spells). Acts normal when target is in melee range, just casts spells sporadically like other caster mobs (though still at Chainspell speed).

[Cairthenn]

Monsters very often have their respective job's traits, especially new ones, so I would not be at all surprised.

[pooter01]

It would make sense if they are a job that would have that trait, though I'll admit I have never thought of it. I would have just assumed it had a mild regain.

[Slycer]

It would make sense if they are a job that would have that trait, though I'll admit I have never thought of it. I would have just assumed it had a mild regain.

It could be a coincidence, but he was below 25% HP (i.e. he would TP as soon as he got 100 TP) and he used the TP move right after he got a nuke off on me (not after an enfeeble or whatever other crap he was casting).

[Obsidian]

I'd wager regain, just because it (and all the other Neo Salvage bosses) can get pretty spammy towards the end of their lives.

[Asymptotic]

Bloodthirsty Dvergr also does that thing where it randomly casts spells on players. I had yet to engage or do anything and it cast Sleep II on me (someone else was engaged and I was standing off to the side). I don't remember if I had mentioned that before.

[Nekradarken]

Before you state that this boss is easy and you can CS tank it full time blah blah blah...it is better to mention your party setup also. There is a significant difference between 2-3 and 5-6 ppl.

[Helel]

I'm 100% positive that hydra and khim have regain. I've kited hydra around before and he will spam tp moves. Never fought cerb, but from the testimonials here, it looks like he has regain as well. It's possible dvergr has both regain and acumen, I suppose.

[Cairthenn]

Hydra does, Khimaira doesn't. Well, if it does it's really minimal. Hydra's is noticeable.

[Protey]

Monsters very often have their respective job's traits, especially new ones, so I would not be at all surprised.

so he's a BLM and RDM, can't remember if he ever double attacked, but if so that'd mean a 3rd job.

[Protey]

Wow good for you, me too. I even use rancor collar and don't use hybrid builds! I'm offering advice for people who are having problems, not people who aren't.

really, then why would you put it that counterstance is only worth it when elegy and slow are on. that makes no sense. the slower the mob tries to hit you, the less damage and slower you are going to kill it. also subbing /nin (and using shadows) negates counterstance as well.

[Protey]

Before you state that this boss is easy and you can CS tank it full time blah blah blah...it is better to mention your party setup also. There is a significant difference between 2-3 and 5-6 ppl.

i always go mnk/war thf/dnc whm/rdm

[Obsidian]

Wow good for you, me too. I even use rancor collar and don't use hybrid builds! I'm offering advice for people who are having problems, not people who aren't.

I think the point some people are trying to make is that your advice may actually be detrimental, such as the parse I posted on the previous page.

[Cairthenn]

Most of the accounts of people dying involve lots of damage dealt in a short period of time rather than more damage taken overall. Your parse is irrelevant, I already stated that would be the overall result.

Stop telling me that you can do it with Counterstance. I know that. I can do it with Counterstance. With the exception of Hydra I could probably do it naked barring the weapon slot. I'm not arguing what you can or cannot do. I am responding to the fact that many people have commented on the fact that they seem to be dying in the time it takes them to blink, some of them MNK. They obviously should be looking to make an adjustment, which would involve hybrid gear or not using Counterstance. I'm advocating the latter. This is not difficult to follow.

Often times this may even only be a temporary change until you become more comfortable with how to handle the mob. Once you've done it several times you could probably win while spinning around in your chair.

[Obsidian]

Most of the accounts of people dying involve lots of damage dealt in a short period of time rather than more damage taken overall. Your parse is irrelevant, I already stated that would be the overall result.

Stop telling me that you can do it with Counterstance. I know that. I can do it with Counterstance. With the exception of Hydra I could probably do it naked barring the weapon slot. I'm not arguing what you can or cannot do. I am responding to the fact that many people have commented on the fact that they seem to be dying in the time it takes them to blink, some of them MNK. They obviously should be looking to make an adjustment, which would involve hybrid gear or not using Counterstance. I'm advocating the latter. This is not difficult to follow.

Often times this may even only be a temporary change until you become more comfortable with how to handle the mob. Once you've done it several times you could probably win while spinning around in your chair.

I'd say you're more likely to die from back-to-back triple attacks than you are from two hits you didn't counter. I only took 50 more damage per hit with Counterstance on, took less damage overall, and used significantly less MP. I'm not saying "hey look I can do it with Counterstance", I'm asking "why do you think not using Counterstance is safer?"