Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Byrthnoth]

It's like this, schee?

With Counterstance - 600 damage per hit average, 1% chance of being one-shotted by a triple attack that goes uncountered even with capped counter rate. 10% chance of being killed by a quick uncountered DA + TP move or 2x uncountered TA + TP move.
Without Counterstance - 300 damage per hit average, 0% chance of being oneshotted or killed with TP+DA combos.

You may argue that you take less damage on average with counterstance up, but you can't really argue that your odds of being oneshotted are lower. Unless you use Counterstance, the Hydra is incapable of doing enough damage to eat through your HP before your healer can get cures off. (Unless you're a taru Q.Q; )

[Cairthenn]

Protey, please stop responding. The context of everything I have posted is if you are at risk of dying and obviously this does not include you. Beyond that, you lack basic comprehension skills. Save yourself the effort.

[ssjjfar]

On 3rd floor of Zhay II can you go west get Gear NM from rampart by pugils, then go east and get another gear NM from rampart by diremites too?

[Slycer]

On 3rd floor of Zhay II can you go west get Gear NM from rampart by pugils, then go east and get another gear NM from rampart by diremites too?

I haven't personally tried but I think more than one person in this thread said they tried and it was not possible. Not sure how long people have waited at the second rampart, but I also highly doubt that it's possible - if it was, it would make the Zhayolm NM total one higher than the other three zones.

[Protey]

Protey, please stop responding. The context of everything I have posted is if you are at risk of dying and obviously this does not include you. Beyond that, you lack basic comprehension skills. Save yourself the effort.

Cairthenn, please stop responding. Everyone is at risk of dying and obviously this includes you. Beyond that, you lack basic reasoning skills. Save yourself the effort.

[Limlight]

I have yet to experience a need for hybrid gear sets on MNK in Neo Salvage. What job is your friend on?

they've been going thf + drk

they switched to thf + mnk on hydra and they got it down. We're trying hydra tonight with mnk, thf, whm, brd for scherzo and see how it goes.

[Slycer]

So, about that Salvage! (read: use PMs for personal quarrels or, better yet, just don't).

[Protey]

So, about that Salvage! (read: use PMs for personal quarrels or, better yet, just don't).

good idea.

[Magitek]

oops a mod already stepped in, disregard my post.

[Obsidian]

Is it possible in Arra to pop both gears on the ...fourth(?) floor? The one on the Lamia side pops right after you kill the gear in that big room, before you open the door. Can you pop them both and just clip through one of the doors to get at them both, or does spawning one disable the other?

[Slycer]

Each boss has a unique way to screw you over if it uses a certain combination of TP moves, spells, double attack, etc. Anything you do to reduce your defenses (i.e. increase damage taken) will obviously increase the number of situations which will lead to your death. Out of these, the one that will most probably lead to your death in situations where you've drastically increased your damage taken (by Counterstance or whatever else) is Hydra because of his ability to drastically drop your HP with Nerve Gas, multi-attacks, and randomly severe Trembling damage. If you're soloing this on MNK and dying with Counterstance active on Hydra, it seems like a fairly obvious recommendation to stop using Counterstance. If you aren't dying and don't feel like you're in any danger of it, then keep doing what you're doing. This discussion isn't even Salvage-specific, you can say the same for like any mob in the game.

[Byrthnoth]

Monsters in Salvage are spawned when you open doors and you can't open both doors, so you can't spawn both monsters.

[Slycer]

Monsters in Salvage are spawned when you open doors and you can't open both doors, so you can't spawn both monsters.

Ya, you can see this if you bring in a job with Widescan (I'm talking about old Salvage anyway, obviously I haven't brought anything with Widescan to new salvage, though I'm sure it's the same). Nothing will be up behind doors you haven't opened. You can also see it when you open a door that has monsters relatively close behind it, you'll actually see them pop just as the door opens.

[Protey]

So let me get this straight, Cair's suggesting/giving advice to people who are having trouble with using counterstance on bosses by changing their approach to one that works... and Protey's constantly arguing that Counterstance is the ONLY way to go? Personally, I stopped using Counterstance on bosses except Dvergr because he's a pussy. Sure, CS might speed up the fight a minute or two, but on Khim or Cerb I'd rather have 0 risk of dying (I've only died once with CS up btw, even without using a ghetto ass hybrid -dt build that only included Twilight torque/Mollusca/and sometimes denali hands). I can beat most bosses without -dt gear and using my normal TP gear (Rancor included!) because I know what they're capable of now. Byrth and Cair pretty much summed it up: If you're having trouble using counterstance, don't use it.

i never said counterstance is the only way to go. i have suggested using a hybrid setup that still keeps you at capped haste. i've also said go full damage gear until 25%, where the boss gets TP spammy if need be. someone would have to math it out, but i'm pretty sure you'd do more damage faster with swapping out rings/neck/back and using CS vs not using CS and going full damage gear. these bosses have capped or near capped hit rate. i know on khim where i keep my whm out of range and only run in when need be it would be impossible to do that without CS, because i'd have to continually spam cures. one fulm at a bad time... oops game over. there is more than one possible solution, each having its ups and downs. while /nin will be the safest, your kill speed will be a lot less and you will have a lot less time to farm alex. CS up and hybrid gear or CS down and non hybrid are around the same in danger, but I believe CS up will give you faster kill speed. If you have a lot of time for bosses, don't use CS and use hybrid gear.

[NynJa]

We're trying hydra tonight with mnk, thf, whm, brd for scherzo and see how it goes.

Scherzo wont save you on hydra. The only thing it does that can potentially fuck you up is its triple attack, which scherzo wont protect you from. You'd be better off maxing your attack and getting those heads down, then switching to marches.

[Helel]

Ya, you can see this if you bring in a job with Widescan (I'm talking about old Salvage anyway, obviously I haven't brought anything with Widescan to new salvage, though I'm sure it's the same). Nothing will be up behind doors you haven't opened. You can also see it when you open a door that has monsters relatively close behind it, you'll actually see them pop just as the door opens.

Hmm. Now that I think about it, the chigoe on the 3rd floor is actually up behind the door before it is even opened. I haven't tried, nor do I plan to, but I suppose you could clip past the door, kill the chigoe, and then run to the north teleport, and kill the archaic gear. I don't know if the north archaic gear, behind the door, pops before the door is opened as well. Then the reverse could work as well.

[Slycer]

I'm not sure that means anything, though, Chigoes might be a different animal entirely because of their weird pop mechanic compared to everything else. Is the same true on the north side (is the Archaic Gear up in the north teleport room before opening the door)?

[Protey]

Hmm. Now that I think about it, the chigoe on the 3rd floor is actually up behind the door before it is even opened. I haven't tried, nor do I plan to, but I suppose you could clip past the door, kill the chigoe, and then run to the north teleport, and kill the archaic gear. I don't know if the north archaic gear, behind the door, pops before the door is opened as well. Then the reverse could work as well.

chigoe might not aggro you though. recall the 1F chigoe that won't aggro until you kill the whole wing. i'll bet that the 3F chigoe won't aggro until you open the door.

[Helel]

I was thinking that, but the archaic gears that pop after killing the two lamia on the second floor (the four in the hallway), they also pop behind the door without opening it. You could clip past the door and kill them. It wouldn't make any difference, but it suggests that the archaic gear on the third floor might pop behind the north door without opening it as well. Certainly, you could kill this gear, and then move south to the chigoe if that's the case.

[Protey]

I was thinking that, but the archaic gears that pop after killing the two lamia on the second floor (the four in the hallway), they also pop behind the door without opening it. You could clip past the door and kill them. It wouldn't make any difference, but it suggests that the archaic gear on the third floor might pop behind the north door without opening it as well. Certainly, you could kill this gear, and then move south to the chigoe if that's the case.

good point. a more nefarious person would have to try it out. because no one here uses clipper >.> if someone does try it out let us know. inb4 GM iseewhatudidthere