Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Obsidian]

What do you need Phalanx (II) for?

[Yugl]

Advantage for mass grabbing mobs on first floors. Someone posted a SCH strategy earlier using Kaustra with Phalanx. Would not work without that Phalanx given the sheer number of mobs. You asked what the advantages are and that is one of them. Furthermore, RDM/WHM is better than sub SCH since you only benefit from a few stratagems and na spells sub SCH. You don't get AoE sleep from WHM anyways.

[Brehn]

I'd honestly like to see a bard keep alive any DD tanking Cerberus or Khimaira.

Seconded. Up until that point, BRD main healing would be totally feasible. But I really just dont see that happening for Cerb or Khim.

[mdkuser]

each healer have their advantage but people use WHM because you dont need to give it the first SJ and a gimp WHM will perform as good as a well geared RDM or SCH. For anything but bosses, healers dont matter since you only use cure 3s.

WHM's advantages is boost-spell (+25 free stat), cureskin, cure V, superfast cast and recast cures.

RDM's is phalanx II.

Either mage have infinite MP so mp efficiency is irrelevant, and 99%your cures (even cure 3s) are overkill. My WHM is running around with 7 autorefresh (+3 from refresh spell so 10), add to that convert if necessary. Hell I dont even use convert anymore on Bosses now that im used to them.

[Obsidian]

Advantage for mass grabbing mobs on first floors. Someone posted a SCH strategy earlier using Kaustra with Phalanx. Would not work without that Phalanx given the sheer number of mobs. You asked what the advantages are and that is one of them. Furthermore, RDM/WHM is better than sub SCH since you only benefit from a few stratagems and na spells sub SCH. You don't get AoE sleep from WHM anyways.

You gain substantially more MP efficieny from /SCH than you do /WHM; the only thing you lose is Stona (which you'll need for the trolls and two Dahaks if you're just duo healer + DD). You're also now forced to merit Phalanx II (which is otherwise worthless) because you've lost access to Accession, and you lose Manifestation Sleep/Break. The only reason to sub WHM is if you'll consistently need Stona (you can turn from Petro Eyes, and Rock Smash doesn't last long), and Bhaflau is the only zone where Petrify is even a possibility.

I also understood the question to be asking about what the benefit to using WHM over SCH or RDM as the healer for a healer + MNK duo, which effectively boils down to Enspells and Slow II vs more potent cures, more potent Shell/barspells, curagas, and expedited early floors (SCH and RDM are both going to eat at the bare minimum your sub job, and SCH or RDM/SCH will eat your JAs).

[Scrooge]

I've done both Cerbs on NIN/THF boxing BRD/WHM. Forgetting to anticipate the stupid PDT crap, each fight ended up taking WAY longer than I anticipated and I ran out of Shihei halfway through Seether. Ended out just fine even without Utsusemi. MNK has more HP than NIN and their evasion may be less but not by a great deal, and they don't feed TP any faster. I can't imagine it'd have any harder time surviving.

I'm not terribly sure why some of you are so shocked at bard being able to heal and at the same time don't seem to have any doubts on a RDM being able to cure. Brd gets the same cure spells as rdm by subbing whm, and can cap cure potency like any other mage. Crappy low MP pool, but with three ballads, idle gear, and sanction refresh, I'm getting over 20 a tick without SV or having bothered to 99 the gjallarhorn. And I get Elegy.

[Brehn]

How'd you deal with the built up hate from C4 spam and low dmg from hoplon/PDT spam? No offense but, its easy to pull hate even on WHM with c3/5 if the fight is prolonged without balancing melee and magic dmg, and I am just curious.

[Yugl]

You gain substantially more MP efficieny from /SCH than you do /WHM; the only thing you lose is Stona (which you'll need for the trolls and two Dahaks if you're just duo healer + DD). You're also now forced to merit Phalanx II (which is otherwise worthless) because you've lost access to Accession, and you lose Manifestation Sleep/Break. The only reason to sub WHM is if you'll consistently need Stona (you can turn from Petro Eyes, and Rock Smash doesn't last long), and Bhaflau is the only zone where Petrify is even a possibility.

I also understood the question to be asking about what the benefit to using WHM over SCH or RDM as the healer for a healer + MNK duo, which effectively boils down to Enspells and Slow II vs more potent cures, more potent Shell/barspells, curagas, and expedited early floors (SCH and RDM are both going to eat at the bare minimum your sub job, and SCH or RDM/SCH will eat your JAs).

Sub SCH only becomes useful once you have JAs. Once you have JAs, SJ is usually unlocked or the same floor. So if you're including the utility of JAs, you may as well have come SCH. With SCH, you get 35DMG Phalanx + 64HP/Tick Regen V.

Furthermore, you gain
1. Superior enfeebling magic skill
2. AoE Sleeps/Break
3. Enspells
4. Perpetuance haste
5. Nukes when useful
6. Embrava when applicable

Edit: None of the buffs you mentioned make the first floor any faster btw. Phalanx II will save you much more MP as any mob will hit for 0-9 damage in most cases.

[Obsidian]

I've done both Cerbs on NIN/THF boxing BRD/WHM. Forgetting to anticipate the stupid PDT crap, each fight ended up taking WAY longer than I anticipated and I ran out of Shihei halfway through Seether. Ended out just fine even without Utsusemi. MNK has more HP than NIN and their evasion may be less but not by a great deal, and they don't feed TP any faster. I can't imagine it'd have any harder time surviving.

I'm not terribly sure why some of you are so shocked at bard being able to heal and at the same time don't seem to have any doubts on a RDM being able to cure. Brd gets the same cure spells as rdm by subbing whm, and can cap cure potency like any other mage. Crappy low MP pool, but with three ballads, idle gear, and sanction refresh, I'm getting over 20 a tick without SV or having bothered to 99 the gjallarhorn. And I get Elegy.

I just posted a parse on the previous page where my evasion rate was 15% on MNK/WAR with +30 evasion from Dodge, and +56 evasion in gear. Average damage per hit was over 300 on both of them (excluding counterstance). NIN has a higher skill cap than MNK, and /THF you get the evasion trait bonuses and access to the same (or better) hybrid evasion gear. I don't have mambos but I find it very difficult to believe a MNK could live off evasion tanking on any of the new zone bosses given my experiences. Using counterstance combined with an evasion set will still leave you vulnerable to increased damage from TP moves which BRD is ill-equipped to deal with (my SMN with decent healing gear lands Cure IVs for around 600, my RDM hits 900 and has a faster cooldown, a WHM will just Cure V for 1100 and be done with it).

Any healer is capable of duoing any zone with a decent DD, but I don't see how, in a thread where people have been complaining about running out of MP and or dying to spike damage, anyone can really say RDM or SCH are more effective at healing than a WHM (fringe cases like BLU cleaving aside).

Edit:

1) How does SCH's B+ Enfeebling win over RDM's A+ Enfeebling, plus more potent enfeebles, plus Saboteur?
2) RDM/SCH gets these
3) RDM/SCH gets these
4) RDM set bonus combined with Estoqueur's Cape will get you close to Perpetuance's duration without burning a strategem, and more potent Refresh if your DD uses MP
5) SCH has the edge here
6) Unnecessary, but useful

A RDM will be able to do a lot more without a sub and/or JAs than a SCH will.

[Scrooge]

Didn't have any hate issues. Had Utsusemi for all of the first Cerb, so very little actual curing went on in that fight. And from my incessant whining on vent about how stupid the PDT crap was, someone pointed out I should try switching to a dagger for AE. Between that and some ghetto Suitons, it went fine. Brd never had hate for any of it.

[Obsidian]

You're not a MNK though. I was also more talking about keeping up with healing than I was about pulling hate. In my experience, MNK's evasion is note remotely good enough to rely on for anything (lower floors included) other than a slow, painful death.

[Yugl]

Edit:

1) How does SCH's B+ Enfeebling win over RDM's A+ Enfeebling, plus more potent enfeebles, plus Saboteur?
2) RDM/SCH gets these
3) RDM/SCH gets these
4) RDM set bonus combined with Estoqueur's Cape will get you close to Perpetuance's duration without burning a strategem, and more potent Refresh if your DD uses MP
5) SCH has the edge here
6) Unnecessary, but useful

A RDM will be able to do a lot more without a sub and/or JAs than a SCH will.

Those are against WHM.

Against RDM/SCH:

1. Better Regen
2. Better Nukes
3. Faster recharges
4. Better enhancing duration
5. Stronger cures

An RDM without sub has no na spells ever. I think it's pointless to bring that up as a RDM v SCH comparison.

Edit: The main benefit of RDM over SCH will be MP regeneration without them. That would be enough to bring RDM and enough of a reason to carry RDM over WHM if applicable.

[Obsidian]

Ah, I misunderstood the comparison. My bad. To be fair, a SCH without a sub has nearly no buffs and no enfeebling magic. I think it's safe to assume that if you take either of them, they'll be getting your first subjob and probably your first ability.

[Yugl]

Only SJ would be the minimum. Generally, any benefit of WHM is only seen at later floors. Since I've cured as RDM/WHM, and SCH would presumably cure better at later floors, I'm convinced WHM doesn't claim any "necessary" buffs. So if any class can cure the later floors, we have to look at the earlier floors. Where MP is concerned, RDM is superior. Otherwise, WHM's advantage only appears if SJ is absent and SJ isn't a major hit. That's just how I see this situation.

[Scrooge]

You're not a MNK though. I was also more talking about keeping up with healing than I was about pulling hate. In my experience, MNK's evasion is note remotely good enough to rely on for anything (lower floors included) other than a slow, painful death.

Actually, that hate thing was a direct reply Brehn.

You're right, I'm not a MNK, but their evasion skill is only 13 less than NIN. And I'm pretty sure every piece of gear in my evasion/haste hybrid set outside of my neck can be used by MNK as well. I'd imagine between natural counter and Perfect Counter, the gap wouldn't be terribly different. I suppose I could be mistaken there.

To be fair, when I made the post, I didn't remember I have Yonin and Kurayami which MNK doesn't. Whether I even used either for the fight I can't even recall to be honest. I rarely bother to. But I know I didn't use Mambo either, which you could certainly use as a substitute.

[Obsidian]

Parse yourself next time and compare it against mine. I've tried a couple times now to do bosses without Counterstance and every time it's caused me significant grief. Relying on raw evasion on MNK seems out of the question given the parse. I would need at least double the +evasion of my current gear to approach 50%, and even if I cared to try, I don't have the inventory space to devote to gear I don't need. Never mind that equipping all that crap draws out the fight significantly.

You're 17 skill ahead on NIN before considering that /THF gives you Evasion bonus II, which is another ~20, and it's likely you use Yonin, but I have no idea how much that gives (and does it decay?).

Edit: What I'm trying to say is, I would absolutely not recommend relying on Evasion to keep you alive on MNK. Counterstance is far and away the way to go in my experience.

[TheDangerousDave]

Are non Vereth/Spharai MNKs using Asuran over Ascetics in Salvage 1/2?

[Sechs]

Why not Shijin Spiral?

[Kohan]

Are non Vereth/Spharai MNKs using Asuran over Ascetics in Salvage 1/2?

Considering that Ascetic's sucks awfully in any non-Abyssea area, if you are a MNK (who doesn't yet have Shijin Spiral or Victory Smite) who uses it over Asuran, you are terrible.

As such, I would hope that the answer is "yes."

[Kohan]

I am apparently doomed to non-stop double-posting.