Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[pooter01]

wait, is that page serious? I thought he was joking with the para stopping petra comment lol. none of it makes any sense to me why it would.

[Kohan]

Conveniently there's no evidence or sources to testing to confirm any of that status negation actually working

I would suppose it's on a mob-to-mob basis, and dependent upon what type of Curse effect you're receiving. Until it's either proven true or false, however, I can only be amused by people who mock someone else when they don't even know definitively whether it's true or not.

[Fondue]

/shout range(2DEX = 0.5 yalms)

this is on otherwiki too, he hath writen it and unto the world it is law

[Protey]

How'd you deal with the built up hate from C4 spam and low dmg from hoplon/PDT spam? No offense but, its easy to pull hate even on WHM with c3/5 if the fight is prolonged without balancing melee and magic dmg, and I am just curious.

my whm has never pulled hate off the mnk tank. if your whm is taking hate, get a better tank.

[Shenrien]

I can see that working for Beadeaux because it saves you time going to the npc thing to get yourself muted to by pass the aura field that curses you, I don't see it working for anything other than that but hey who knows, stranger things have happened.

[clef]

I would suppose it's on a mob-to-mob basis, and dependent upon what type of Curse effect you're receiving. Until it's either proven true or false, however, I can only be amused by people who mock someone else when they don't even know definitively whether it's true or not.

I'd test it myself, but Hydra isn't up and there aren't any plans to visit ZR. The true amusement will be had if the hypothesis is proven to be true. Whenever dealing with curse, the naysayers will be reminded of their small mindedness. If incorrect, well, it'll be forgotten along with the ideas of RDM and BRD main tanking HNMs. Who would have ever though such absurd ideas would work?

[Fake]

Terror prevents petrify etc, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to think there are other combinations of debuffs that prevent one another.

[Prothescar]

It wouldn't be status effects preventing each other, it would be a special property of the medicines themselves. I've been silenced and cursed at the same time

[Motenten]

How'd you deal with the built up hate from C4 spam and low dmg from hoplon/PDT spam? No offense but, its easy to pull hate even on WHM with c3/5 if the fight is prolonged without balancing melee and magic dmg, and I am just curious.

my whm has never pulled hate off the mnk tank. if your whm is taking hate, get a better tank.

That's a rather naive assertion. Pulling hate has little to do with the competence of the tank, and much more to do with the enmity system itself.

If the whm is taking hate, it's because they've reached the enmity cap. This can be due to: Not using Cure V/VI (if whm); not using proper regens (if sch); not using sufficient enmity gear (either); not making use of hate reduction tools (ie: thf using Collab, sch using Augeo Minuo on themselves); the DDs killing too slow (either due to rising PDT, or lower damage due to using magic weaponskills to keep PDT down); the DDs taking too much damage (some of which is being discussed already in this thread); and possibly other considerations.

In the case of the original question, it had to do with brd/whm, not whm main, thus subject to more hate issues due to less tools in general. I would guess that the brd/whm manages fine due to -enmity gear, and the fact that the main tank it was paired with was nin/thf (thus decent evasion and shadows negating a large portion of the damage taken, which in turn means less hate build-up from cures).


Assuming the last part of the formula used in Kaeko's enmity tables continues up to level 99 (it's 3 piecewise-linear equations), the amount cured (outside Cure 5/6, and not counting -enmity) needed to reach capped CE at 99 is 17250.


On our last Bhaflau run where I was whm, NQ Cerberus required 17564 HP cured, though that included 4 Cure V's (so 13380 cured outside of that). I did not pull hate.

HQ Cerberus required 22732 HP cured, and I did pull hate right at the end. Removing the Cure V and Cure VI used after that point (I was going for MP efficiency rather than low hate, and the DDs never took enough damage to really require Cure V), 20454 HP was cured. There were at least a couple other cures in the last moments as well, so I'd estimate I pulled hate around 18-19k HP cured.

My cure set only has -6 enmity (grip and Orison Earring). -6 enmity would push the CE cap from curing up to 18350 HP.


Obsidian's parse has him being cured for 27935 HP on NQ Cerberus. Removing the Cure V/Cure VI healing, 17353 HP was cured. The whm took 2 hits in that fight, so did manage to pull hate at some point. I expect the whm just barely crossed the hate threshhold at the end.

On the HQ Cerberus, the whm cured 25990 HP, or 20883 after removing Cure Vs. The whm took 1 melee hit in that fight, so pulled hate there as well, though it seems it was well controlled.



Overall, if you have a mnk tank (and thus one who has enough HP to absorb a full Cure V's worth of healing), a whm using Cure V should easily be able to stay under the hate cap. If you have sch curing, Regen V should compensate for a huge amount of the hate you'd otherwise receive, as a Perp+Regen5 can restore over 6k HP. If you have a brd, rdm or sch healing, or DDs that don't have enough HP to warrant Cure V, and thus generally using Cure III/IV, a decent amount of -enmity should suffice; -20 to -25 enmity is fairly easy to get while maintaining 50% cure potency, and sch can boost that a bit with Animus Minuo. And finally, if you have a thf along, a couple uses of Collaborator should keep any healer below the radar for the duration of the fight.

[Darkmagi]

My WHM mule has basically no -enmity gear in his cure set and has never once pulled hate with C4 spam. I don't really see cure enmity ever being an issue unless dealing with hate reset or not having means to bypass pdt/shields.

[mdkuser]

on cerb WHM can pull hate if you dont use formless stike. The very first one I did was with MNK WHM BRD. It went down to ~30% really fast but then i hit for nothing and magma hoplon spam made MNK gain no enimity, which ended up in WHM pulling hate and wipe.

[Hitou]

I would suppose it's on a mob-to-mob basis, and dependent upon what type of Curse effect you're receiving. Until it's either proven true or false, however, I can only be amused by people who mock someone else when they don't even know definitively whether it's true or not.

This reminds me of way way back in the day people used to say using blind potions, or maybe just having blind on in general, would prevent gaze attacks from working. To this day I'm not sure if it doesn't work because I never bothered to try it.

[Byrthnoth]

Blinding monsters to prevent gaze attacks does work (at least on some of them). It made my Peiste trials much easier.

[Trumpy]

I was at other wiki the other day and stumbled upon that page bout status effects. Only thing i knew/was sure about was poison preventing sleep (it doesnt prevent it, it just does dmg to wake you i believe) Aren't there some dragon moves (shadow dragon type dragons) that dont work if they are silenced? I know i was told once that Pieste if THEY are blinded wont gaze petrify you, i dont know if i was ever able to test that though (doesnt work for most nm piestes i have fought). Ive only heard that about pieste tho not other gazers. I cant imagine paralyze blocking petrification tho, and why would you want to be paralyzed anyway, hopefully you have a whm or someone who can cure that paralyze.

[Yugl]

Blinding monsters to prevent gaze attacks does work (at least on some of them). It made my Peiste trials much easier.

Which kinds of gaze? I can pick out a pattern maybe.

[Byrthnoth]

All Peiste gaze attacks. I don't have any other examples.

[Yugl]

So that could be every gaze, but isn't confirmed yet.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, but they don't use the move when they're blinded similarly to how shadow dragons don't use their "-song" moves when silenced. Showing that they are incapable of using the moves while blinded is going to be about as fun as learning BLU spells.

The hecteyes' paralyze move and Blank Gaze are the only other two gaze based moves that come to mind.



Also kind of random, but today I played around with the Acroliths in Arrapago II and noticed that some start with only one arm and can be knocked down to just-legs with Box Step/Violent Flourish/Crit hits, while others start with two arms and have to use Dismemberment before they can be leg-i-fied.

[Protey]

on cerb WHM can pull hate if you dont use formless stike. The very first one I did was with MNK WHM BRD. It went down to ~30% really fast but then i hit for nothing and magma hoplon spam made MNK gain no enimity, which ended up in WHM pulling hate and wipe.

my mnk doesn't even have formless strikes. i don't see how people are having trouble with magma hoplon and the pdt. i have never had the stoneskin last for more than 10 seconds, and that's being conservative. i have a mnk/war and thf/dnc on it, with the thf/dnc using haste samba and opening SC with shark bite and mnk closing light with shijin spiral. thf is of course using feint/sneak attack and trick attack. never used collaborator or accomplice. i don't save tp for hoplon, i just do SCs through the fight and both fights take hardly any time. the whm starts out the fight with boost-str, auspice, barfira, shellra5, and dia2. redo the buffs right after a tp move after a couple minutes then back out to 20' range. dispel spikes from hoplon.

[Yugl]

other-wiki indicates that it does. Paralyze apparently stops petrify as well. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Me...Status_Effects

Just tested against Ghosts and the Silence Potion bit isn't true.