Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Darkmagi]

It's already been known that mythics that can't get tp incredibly quickly are useless more or less unless starting with 300tp. Vere is better with high crit rate or 200+ starting tp. Obvious few exceptions being pup and non DD mythics.

[Obsidian]

not even that. let's do a comparison real quick: spharai: ODT all the time 13% rate, no aftermath required. verethragna: ODD 30% of the time with AM1 for 30 sec. or 40% of the time with AM2 for 1 min. glanzfaust: occ. attacks 2x/3x (40%/20%) but with AM3 for 3 min.

so even if you kept the DD on all the time, on verethragna you could probably maintain AM2, but then you are missing out on 1 of your WSs, so let's say you just stick with AM1 and not have to worry about overwriting your AMs and holding TP. 30% ODD barely does more damage than 13% ODT assuming both are hitting for the same amount (which isn't the case since spharai has higher DMG and +att). Now include the 10 DMG increase that spharai has over verethragna, all the extra counter damage (increase of 14% counter rate on spharai 99), the +40 attack of spharai, and the buildup of TP for that first WS to get aftermath. Spharai clearly wins.

now compare to glanzfaust, you have to keep getting 300tp, that oh by the way your aftermath can't be overwritten. so losing out on 2 WSs at least if not more for while waiting for previous aftermath to wear off. now glanzfaust could arguably do better against an extremely evasive mob with its boost to focus (ignore loldodge, as that reduces our counter damage). the DMG is only 1 less, but again has no +att (unless you do AM2). will sorely lose out on damage from having to hold TP and less counter rate. o, and ascetics fury sucks. spharai wins again.

You're excluding Victory Smite damage vs Shijin damage vs Ascetic's damage (lol). I dunno who that favors, but it's relevant if you're leaving DDs on the mob. The improved counter rate is only really relevant if you're the only DD and also not using Counterstance.

[Fake]

not even that. let's do a comparison real quick: spharai: ODT all the time 13% rate, no aftermath required. verethragna: ODD 30% of the time with AM1 for 30 sec. or 40% of the time with AM2 for 1 min. glanzfaust: occ. attacks 2x/3x (40%/20%) but with AM3 for 3 min.

so even if you kept the DD on all the time, on verethragna you could probably maintain AM2, but then you are missing out on 1 of your WSs, so let's say you just stick with AM1 and not have to worry about overwriting your AMs and holding TP. 30% ODD barely does more damage than 13% ODT assuming both are hitting for the same amount (which isn't the case since spharai has higher DMG and +att). Now include the 10 DMG increase that spharai has over verethragna, all the extra counter damage (increase of 14% counter rate on spharai 99), the +40 attack of spharai, and the buildup of TP for that first WS to get aftermath. Spharai clearly wins.

now compare to glanzfaust, you have to keep getting 300tp, that oh by the way your aftermath can't be overwritten. so losing out on 2 WSs at least if not more for while waiting for previous aftermath to wear off. now glanzfaust could arguably do better against an extremely evasive mob with its boost to focus (ignore loldodge, as that reduces our counter damage). the DMG is only 1 less, but again has no +att (unless you do AM2). will sorely lose out on damage from having to hold TP and less counter rate. o, and ascetics fury sucks. spharai wins again.

Thats a fantastic bunch of arbitrary points you just made, however it doesn't really address the issue of why the current pecking order is going to be affected. Glanz is already crap except when starting with tp for a short fight and the difference between vereth and sphari on crit neutral targets is pretty marginal but mnk isn't the only job in the game.

once content moves on with the expansion, i foresee mythics/empyreans being crap compared to relics.

[Protey]

Thats a fantastic bunch of arbitrary points you just made, however it doesn't really address the issue of why the current pecking order is going to be affected. Glanz is already crap except when starting with tp for a short fight and the difference between vereth and sphari on crit neutral targets is pretty marginal but mnk isn't the only job in the game.

if things like DMG rating of a weapon, att+ on the weapon, whether weapon requires you to store TP to increase your damage are arbitrary in consideration of damage, then what do you consider non-arbitrary?

difference between vereth and spharai on crit neutral is marginal? calling bullshit on that one. that would mean on non-crit neutral verethragna destroys spharai. the only time vere destroys spharai is when you can keep getting wings to get instant tp.

and yes i know mnk isn't the only job in the game, i just didn't feel like comparing and contrasting all 20 jobs.

[Protey]

You're excluding Victory Smite damage vs Shijin damage vs Ascetic's damage (lol). I dunno who that favors, but it's relevant if you're leaving DDs on the mob. The improved counter rate is only really relevant if you're the only DD and also not using Counterstance.

would have to include the WSs yes, and i do believe that favors VS, by how much depends on the situation. if not using counterstance, vere people will be short 8% counter rate assuming they put 5/5 counter and have relic feet.

[Obsidian]

I'm curious as to the math behind Shijin Spiral vs Victory Smite, because it would seem to me that a 60% STR mod on a 4-hit crit weaponskill would be better than a 100% DEX mod 5 hit non-crit weaponskill (does it have an attack penalty?) on anything that doesn't have crit resistance, and would contribute significantly to the Vereth/Spharai comparison. AM1 isn't anything to scoff at.

[Vyvian]

You're excluding Victory Smite damage vs Shijin damage vs Ascetic's damage (lol). I dunno who that favors, but it's relevant if you're leaving DDs on the mob. The improved counter rate is only really relevant if you're the only DD and also not using Counterstance.

Confused about bolded part. The numbers we have on BGWiki indicate that a verethragna user is just shy of 10% short of counter cap while counterstance is up with merits. I don't TP in any gear that gives +counter, but the one piece that may be common is usu gloves +1 (I don't have mine yet) and those only have 4%, leaving the vereth user still short, while counterstance is up.

[Obsidian]

Confused about bolded part. The numbers we have on BGWiki indicate that a verethragna user is just shy of 10% short of counter cap while counterstance is up with merits. I don't TP in any gear that gives +counter, but the one piece that may be common is usu gloves +1 (I don't have mine yet) and those only have 4%, leaving the vereth user still short, while counterstance is up.

I may be missing something, but 12% base + 45% Counterstance + 10% Melee gaiters +2 + 5% Counter merits would put you at 72%. Counter rate caps at 76% after accuracy check according to the wiki, so you're 4% short before considering any gear, substantially mitigating the +counter rate advantage of Spharai, and that's before considering Perfect Counter.

[Vyvian]

You need to have 80% in gear, to have it reduced by your accuracy to 76%. 72 in gear x 0.95 = 68.4% effective rate.

[Obsidian]

Ah, so 8% short before gear, my bad.

Looking at that page again, I thought NQ gaiters added 10%, not 5%. Huh.

[Vyvian]

Ah, so 8% short before gear, my bad.

Looking at that page again, I thought NQ gaiters added 10%, not 5%. Huh.

I think just about every MNK thought that until +2 came out and made somebody retest the enhancement. As far as I could find back then, Almalexia was the only person I found who tested it, and had a 10% result (with a somewhat smaller sample size).

[Motenten]

I'm curious as to the math behind Shijin Spiral vs Victory Smite, because it would seem to me that a 60% STR mod on a 4-hit crit weaponskill would be better than a 100% DEX mod 5 hit non-crit weaponskill (does it have an attack penalty?) on anything that doesn't have crit resistance, and would contribute significantly to the Vereth/Spharai comparison. AM1 isn't anything to scoff at.

60% str, let's say 150 str, that's 76 WSC

100% dex, let's say 150 dex, that's 127 WSC

str weaponskill is more likely to cap fStr. Let's say half the fStr cap, since the Shijin build is going to want str+dex gear where possible, so +7 damage there.

Will assume lvl 99 weapons for base damage: +42 for Vere, +52 for Spharai

Rough base damage total:

Vere: 51+42+13+76 = 182
Spharai: 51+52+6+127 = 236

So base damage per hit is ~30% higher with Spharai using Shijin.

Before adding in crits, that means 1.3 * 5 = 6.5 for Spharai compared to 4 for Vere. Crits would then need to be increasing damage on Smite by better than 50% on average across all hits (ie: not just per crit) to match Shijin.

Oh, and Shijin gets a ~6% attack bonus as well.


Now, the above will actually tend to swing more towards Vere because good dex or str+dex gear is rarer for mnk than just straight str gear. However if you -do- acquire that gear, Shijin can easily hold its own against Smite, unless you're dealing with extremely heavy level correction, where crits become disproportionately valuable.

Aside from that, it's the impact of Smite's AM3 when prepped for a zerg that pushes it ahead in those scenarios.

[NynJa]

I think just about every MNK thought that until +2 came out and made somebody retest the enhancement. As far as I could find back then, Almalexia was the only person I found who tested it, and had a 10% result (with a somewhat smaller sample size).

Its possible SE ninja nerfed it, presumably at the point Relic+2 was made, because they probably figured that giving +2 Counter+20 might be a little abusive (Base 12 + 45 + 20 = practically capped). The sample size wasnt massive, but 4 tests pointing to a consistent +10%?

[Darkmagi]

Actually sounds like a pretty feasible thing for them to do. People would complain far too much if the counter on spharai wasn't even doing anything with counterstance up.

[Fake]

if things like DMG rating of a weapon, att+ on the weapon, whether weapon requires you to store TP to increase your damage are arbitrary in consideration of damage, then what do you consider non-arbitrary?

difference between vereth and spharai on crit neutral is marginal? calling bullshit on that one. that would mean on non-crit neutral verethragna destroys spharai. the only time vere destroys spharai is when you can keep getting wings to get instant tp.

and yes i know mnk isn't the only job in the game, i just didn't feel like comparing and contrasting all 20 jobs.

You are just restating the mechanics of mythics/emps, you aren't stating how they will change come the new expansion which is the point I took issue with in the first place.

On a mob with no crit defense/rate reduction then yes, verethanga is pretty much even with spharai. Sure if you are only DD then the extra counters are going to add up and sphari will also have a defensive advantage.

So far you have stated that mythics and emps will some how be diminished in adoulin and then completely ignored that.

[Protey]

You are just restating the mechanics of mythics/emps, you aren't stating how they will change come the new expansion which is the point I took issue with in the first place.

On a mob with no crit defense/rate reduction then yes, verethanga is pretty much even with spharai. Sure if you are only DD then the extra counters are going to add up and sphari will also have a defensive advantage.

So far you have stated that mythics and emps will some how be diminished in adoulin and then completely ignored that.

that's because mythics and emps depend on aftermath for their damage boosts. i believe in adoulin they are going to move away from players getting TP wings all the time. do i have any proof of them doing that? no, just my belief that they will want to change things up (hence why i said I foresee it happening). An AM1 mythic/emp will do less damage than a relic. holding onto your tp for AM3 and also not being able to overwrite AM3 will also cause you to do less damage than a relic. what will also cause a mythic to do less damage is having to do the mythic WS to activate AM, since most mythic WSs do poor damage. some emp WSs are rather poor too. with the embrava nerf coming, and lack of tp wings, relics are going to be the wave of the future (unless they come up with some new kind of weapon in the expansion.... please, please not aftermath related)

[Darkmagi]

The only thing that would make empyreans useless would be if we had to run in and WS and not be able to TP on NMs. Only a small portion of content actually uses AM3 besides mythics. The empyreans that are relevant now, will be relevant regardless unless they drastically change how we must fight things. Mind you, I'm a huge fan of Spharai over verethragna for anything without crit buffs(or a lot of level correction, but I wouldn't be playing MNK for this). That has nothing to do with aftermath though, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to maintain AM1 on most things.

[Fake]

that's because mythics and emps depend on aftermath for their damage boosts. i believe in adoulin they are going to move away from players getting TP wings all the time. do i have any proof of them doing that? no, just my belief that they will want to change things up (hence why i said I foresee it happening). An AM1 mythic/emp will do less damage than a relic. holding onto your tp for AM3 and also not being able to overwrite AM3 will also cause you to do less damage than a relic. what will also cause a mythic to do less damage is having to do the mythic WS to activate AM, since most mythic WSs do poor damage. some emp WSs are rather poor too. with the embrava nerf coming, and lack of tp wings, relics are going to be the wave of the future (unless they come up with some new kind of weapon in the expansion.... please, please not aftermath related)

At what point was voidwatch being referenced, there are several mythics that can maintain AM3 and be the strongest weapon for that job without any regain/wings. I'm sure all mythics are best for each job in voidwatch but I never said anything about that, the good ones are still going to be good and relics won't suddenly start shitting over everything.

Your perspective seems entirely based around mnk.

[Cairthenn]

Pchanv2

[Protey]

At what point was voidwatch being referenced, there are several mythics that can maintain AM3 and be the strongest weapon for that job without any regain/wings. I'm sure all mythics are best for each job in voidwatch but I never said anything about that, the good ones are still going to be good and relics won't suddenly start shitting over everything.

Your perspective seems entirely based around mnk.

that's the point... there won't be voidwatch (sure people can still do old content, but like abyssea, i foresee it more and more difficult to get people to go do it). name one mythic where they can maintain AM3 and still be the strongest weapon for that job. cuz i see every one requiring a crappy WS to activate and having to hold out to 300 tp (which also means either you have to drop AM3 for awhile if you don't time it right or you have to hold onto 300 tp for awhile while waiting for AM3 to drop since doesn't overwrite).

The only thing that would make empyreans useless would be if we had to run in and WS and not be able to TP on NMs. Only a small portion of content actually uses AM3 besides mythics. The empyreans that are relevant now, will be relevant regardless unless they drastically change how we must fight things. Mind you, I'm a huge fan of Spharai over verethragna for anything without crit buffs(or a lot of level correction, but I wouldn't be playing MNK for this). That has nothing to do with aftermath though, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to maintain AM1 on most things.

i never said emps were useless. on the contrary, even with only AM1 they will outperform vast majority of non-relic weapons.

Pchanv2

STFU. If all you can do is call vile names you aren't contributing anything worthwhile to the conversation.