Salvage II - Slavage Harder

[Fake]

that's the point... there won't be voidwatch (sure people can still do old content, but like abyssea, i foresee it more and more difficult to get people to go do it). name one mythic where they can maintain AM3 and still be the strongest weapon for that job. cuz i see every one requiring a crappy WS to activate and having to hold out to 300 tp (which also means either you have to drop AM3 for awhile if you don't time it right or you have to hold onto 300 tp for awhile while waiting for AM3 to drop since doesn't overwrite).

KKK for lolpup - sure its a lol job but people enjoy playing it and mythic is best

Terp for Dnc - fairly substantial boost over 99 twash even after taking into consideration the maintaining of aftermath

Conqueror for War - Situationally the better than Ukon and Best during mighty strikes

Liberator for Drk - Situationally better than Rag

And the biggest 2

Ryun Drg - Light years ahead of any other polearm and can get a lot of tp very quickly with jumps mitigating dps lost from getting 300tp at end of cycle

Koga Sam - Strongest weapon in the game for most situations, even in fully buffed conditions with a cor it is still going to be on par with Ukon/Rag

[macross]

Sam can easily get 300 tp by using meditate, up to 220 tp with meditate. If it's just a single target you can pop a wing and prep it even faster. Your cor can also regain roll and sch can adloquium you before you engage as well. So starting at 300 tp, not that difficult.

And Tachi: rana doesn't suck with am3 on, it can hit pretty high numbers.

Get a mythic and use one before you claim this and that based on 'paper math'.

[Limlight]

so how about that salvage~

[macross]

got bored with it already hehe, still got to finish the Usu head +1 though, but usu plans are easy. Finished 5 peices (3 ares 2usu), with 70 skadi parts a well I use on someting someday. Prob should do some morrigans too though, if i ever play mage job again.

[Limlight]

i know what you mean, but this thread was getting way too serious

[mdkuser]

Thats a fantastic bunch of arbitrary points you just made, however it doesn't really address the issue of why the current pecking order is going to be affected. Glanz is already crap except when starting with tp for a short fight and the difference between vereth and sphari on crit neutral targets is pretty marginal but mnk isn't the only job in the game.

the difference between spharai and verethragna is marginal on anything. Something like verethregna is +3% damage during impetus and -5% outside.

[mdkuser]

I'm curious as to the math behind Shijin Spiral vs Victory Smite, because it would seem to me that a 60% STR mod on a 4-hit crit weaponskill would be better than a 100% DEX mod 5 hit non-crit weaponskill (does it have an attack penalty?) on anything that doesn't have crit resistance, and would contribute significantly to the Vereth/Spharai comparison. AM1 isn't anything to scoff at.

Parses from ADL: verthraga averages 3200 on VS and spharai averages 3000 on Shijin (with boost-dex). thats during impetus obv. On par with maths. and shijin has an attack bonus actually.

[Fake]

the difference between spharai and verethragna is marginal on anything. Something like verethregna is +3% damage during impetus and -5% outside.

I was more refering to inside abyssea and mobs with crit defense boost

[diasetsu]

Its possible SE ninja nerfed it, presumably at the point Relic+2 was made, because they probably figured that giving +2 Counter+20 might be a little abusive (Base 12 + 45 + 20 = practically capped). The sample size wasnt massive, but 4 tests pointing to a consistent +10%?

Actually sounds like a pretty feasible thing for them to do. People would complain far too much if the counter on spharai wasn't even doing anything with counterstance up.

There wasn't a single test shown that wouldn't allow for a 5% increase from gaiters. Those confidence intervals were horrendous, and I highly doubt there was ever a ninja nerf. Back then there wasn't a single item that increased counter rate more than 5%, and although we are talking about counterstance and not just counter, 5% would have been a much more feasible number to slap on gaiters.

[NynJa]

There wasn't a single test shown that wouldn't allow for a 5% increase from gaiters. Those confidence intervals were horrendous, and I highly doubt there was ever a ninja nerf. Back then there wasn't a single item that increased counter rate more than 5%, and although we are talking about counterstance and not just counter, 5% would have been a much more feasible number to slap on gaiters.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...25738&h=50&p=1

alma's first test:
m.gaiter macro'd off: 63 Counters, 38 Non-counters; C.rate- 62.3%
m.gaiter fulltime: 62 Counters, 39 Non-counters; C.rate- 61.3%
no m.gaiter at all: 52 Counters, 49 Non-counters; C.rate- 51.4%

alma's second test:
m.gaiter macro'd off: 198 Counters, 103 Non-counters; C.rate- 65.7%
m.gaiter fulltime: 201 Counters, 100 Non-counters; C.rate- 66.7%
no m.gaiter at all: 161 Counters, 140 Non-counters; C.rate- 53.4%

pahn's test:
m.gaiter macro'd off: 70 Counters, 42 Non-counters; C.rate- 62.5%
m.gaiter fulltime: 65 Counters, 46 Non-counters; C.rate- 58.5%
no m.gaiter at all: 47 Counters, 43 Non-counters; C.rate- 52.2%

total:
m.gaiter macro'd off: 331 Counters, 183 Non-counters; C.rate- 64.4%
m.gaiter fulltime: 328 Counters, 185 Non-counters; C.rate- 63.9%
no m.gaiter at all: 260 Counters, 232 Non-counters; C.rate- 52.8%


once again, they're not massive sample sizes, but the only one that shows anything near a 5% increase instead of 10 would be pahn's second test, which is STILL closer to a 10% increase instead of 5% increase. And I think 1000 hits taken is moderately sufficient to determine any kind of increase, maybe not to pin it down exactly, but sufficient to discern a 5% increase from a 10% increase. Unfortunately, you cant go back in time and re-test this stuff with whats available today, but whether you want to believe it or not, all signs are pointing to a ninja nerf at some point, and its NOT out of SE's realm to do something like that.


Why does the idea that SE may have ninja nerfed something (an unlisted stat gain on a piece of gear no less) seem to offensive to you?

[Motenten]

once again, they're not massive sample sizes, but the only one that shows anything near a 5% increase instead of 10 would be pahn's second test, which is STILL closer to a 10% increase instead of 5% increase. And I think 1000 hits taken is moderately sufficient to determine any kind of increase, maybe not to pin it down exactly, but sufficient to discern a 5% increase from a 10% increase. Unfortunately, you cant go back in time and re-test this stuff with whats available today, but whether you want to believe it or not, all signs are pointing to a ninja nerf at some point, and its NOT out of SE's realm to do something like that.

Just taking the sum totals, to have the smallest overall margin of error,

m.gaiter macro'd off: 4.1% margin of error -- 60.2% - 68.4%
m.gaiter fulltime: 4.1% margin of error -- 59.7% - 68.0%
no m.gaiter at all: 4.4% margin of error -- 48.4% - 57.2%

Given that keeping the gaiters on fulltime was not necessary, and thus the benefit was the same in both cases, we can actually combine those numbers for a final version:

with m.gaiters: 659 counters, 368 non-counters; 2.9% margin of error -- 61.2% - 67.0%

Thus the difference between using m.gaiters and not is between 4% and 18.6%, a 14% spread of values. Both 5% and 10% are within that range, and even 15% is possible. 10% is obviously taken as 'most likely', but 5% is not ruled out.

So it's impossible to say whether it was nerfed or not. The more practical stance is that we just didn't know how to do sufficiently valid tests back then, so there's no reason to assume a nerf when human error is just as likely.

For example, were the tests done on mandragoras in order to speed up the number of hits taken? I did that with my test of the +2 gaiters, only to have it pointed out that the mandys could guard my hits as well, and that likely influenced the final result (eg: a guarded counter is a 'miss' the way an evaded counter is, and the randomness of it distorts the reliability of the final totals). If some of the above tests were vs mandys and some vs other mobs, we can't reasonably combine the totals, either. [Edit: Checked thread -- Alma's first tests were vs spiders, so that wouldn't influence the result; have to go searching on what other mobs were tested] [Edit2: Found the other test posts; no mandys involved, so that issue is moot for this set of data.]

[NynJa]

So were left to assume the following:
1-the sample sizes were insufficient, and it very well may have been 5%, but back then your parser didnt exist, amongst other things, and obtaining a proper sample size would have been 10x the work then it is today
2-it was 10% and SE ninja nerfed it when they created AF2+2

and since no one has a time machine, the answer will never be solved, end of discussion.

[Gokku]

The answer is ebody is blue

[diasetsu]

I'm not exactly arguing that there MAY have been a nerf, I'm arguing that it is a stupid point to bring up just because 2 people's tests show that 10% was a potential increase. By the way, you really shouldn't combine results that have different base counter. Alma had 57% without gaiters(base+counterstance+2 merits), while pahn had 60% due to 5 merits. Alma's results should show 62% while pahn's should show 65%. While Alma's can show a potential 10% increase at 67%, pahn's can not show 10% increase as 70% is outside his confidence interval.

But you know what? I do suppose that counterstance adding 45% and all my testing I did showing that could have also been nerfed and increased right?

[Vyvian]

I'm not exactly arguing that there MAY have been a nerf, I'm arguing that it is a stupid point to bring up just because 2 people's tests show that 10% was a potential increase. By the way, you really shouldn't combine results that have different base counter. Alma had 57% without gaiters(base+counterstance+2 merits), while pahn had 60% due to 5 merits. Alma's results should show 62% while pahn's should show 65%. While Alma's can show a potential 10% increase at 67%, pahn's can not show 10% increase as 70% is outside his confidence interval.

But you know what? I do suppose that counterstance adding 45% and all my testing I did showing that could have also been nerfed and increased right?

I remember trying to get counterstance information years ago (before abyssea), and even that wasn't nailed down to 45%. I found information saying anything from tripling your base counter rate to +40% (before boots). I think the reason these numbers are so solid now is that regen atmas and abyssea made it a lot easier to test with a large sample size and not die.

[cdgreg]

I'm going to start duoing salvage mnk + whm with a friend. My primary target are Primacy Plans for Morrigan's body/feet while his top priority is Bloodshed Plans for whatever Ares melee-type people want. I tried doing a quick search without much luck, what is the best farming path for the maximum number of primary & bloodshed plans per run? Thanks!

[Xilk]

For plan farming only, its easy to solo Arrapago II on bst/dnc. (Pup, and blu and a few other jobs probably work as well. I'm not sure. )

1st floor is a bit slow. Took me 28 min. All you need to kill is 1 or 2 leeches after the first lamp to have ranged for pet a pet. you only need to kill 1 or 2 mobs of any type to get fully unlocked.

Floor 2 is super quick and floor 3 is quick also. Acrolith takes a little time to kill. If you use Falcorr, I suggest using an eva axe, but w/ Yuly I can offhand my STR axe. The acrolith on 3rd floor hit Falcorr alot, and he required alot of cures. Yuly didn't take much damage at all.

The NM's on the 4th floor take a long time to solo down. Haste Samba and boxstep really make a significant impact on kill speed. I spent probably 35 min on this floor. It is well worth it to be careful on Qutrub pulls. Blm's are very troublesome for a bst. Paralyze from Icespikes and AoE spells can really get you dead. Drk's are easy kills though. w/ only th1 from pet. the chances of a cotton purse or double plan drop is pretty slim. I got one but its probably every other run which you get 1 double plan drop.

Opting for this approach would also sacrifice alex. You will get almost none on solo bst. Apparently another player solo'd both Khimmies on bst when party died. This was done w/ LOTS of dawn mulsum and using Gooey. I have all gear drops from Khimmies and I wasn't interested in solo'ing them down. Also, I had no confidence in being able to solo Armored chariot down fast enough to spawn NQ on 5th floor.. therefor no chance to spawn HQ at all.

I decided to test farming triple gears instead.. it doesn't seem to be a good prospect either.
I was not able to pull them separately. I was able to kill a couple by using Julio to sleep them w/ soporofic. However this was painstakingly slow and not very productive.
The purpose of a solo neo run is ofcourse to get more plans for a small group of players more quickly. My group has been taking turns working on 1 piece of armor at a time for each member. However, most of us have been opting for some skadi piece first, so we've been doing nonstop arrapago runs for many weeks. Being able to get 3x (or more depending on how many want to solo) pieces of armor/week is better than 1 piece of armor/week for some players.

[Protey]

For plan farming only, its easy to solo Arrapago II on bst/dnc. (Pup, and blu and a few other jobs probably work as well. I'm not sure. )

1st floor is a bit slow. Took me 28 min. All you need to kill is 1 or 2 leeches after the first lamp to have ranged for pet a pet. you only need to kill 1 or 2 mobs of any type to get fully unlocked.

I decided to test farming triple gears instead.. it doesn't seem to be a good prospect either.
I was not able to pull them separately. I was able to kill a couple by using Julio to sleep them w/ soporofic. However this was painstakingly slow and not very productive.
The purpose of a solo neo run is ofcourse to get more plans for a small group of players more quickly. My group has been taking turns working on 1 piece of armor at a time for each member. However, most of us have been opting for some skadi piece first, so we've been doing nonstop arrapago runs for many weeks. Being able to get 3x (or more depending on how many want to solo) pieces of armor/week is better than 1 piece of armor/week for some players.

you can't get full clear on 1f unless you get body unlock in chest... no mobs on 1f drop body.

there is no way you are going to get 3x +1 armor in a week (maybe if you have several characters and send plans to yourself, but i don't think you were talking about that). though you just said armor, you could have meant the 45s, but one can easily get more than 3 in a week unless you are really bad at killing the bosses. maybe you meant the nq armor upgrades... though i don't know why you'd want most of them... in that case yes 3x a week are doable assuming you're getting at least 6 plans a day (though AR2 has shown in my experience not to always give that many, it doesn't like to double drop very often even with TH8+).

[Radec]

I'm going to start duoing salvage mnk + whm with a friend. My primary target are Primacy Plans for Morrigan's body/feet while his top priority is Bloodshed Plans for whatever Ares melee-type people want. I tried doing a quick search without much luck, what is the best farming path for the maximum number of primary & bloodshed plans per run? Thanks!

Primacy - SSR:
West(Doomed)
Center(QQTHF)
Center(FomorMNK)
East(FomorTHF, HUGE PAIN, use 30min foods so can sushi for this)
South(Orobon, probably have to pull both E and N 3x nq-orobon lamp if weather causing large links)
E/W(LAC) = 6x 100% plans, up to 11 if you get everything possible to doubledrop.

I've done all those 6 + NQ + HQ as mnk/thf+rdm, but it's pretty down to the wire, had ~80s left. I like rdm better than whm for phalanx2 early and more options to sleep gears when popping lac later on.

[Protey]

I've done all those 6 + NQ + HQ as mnk/thf+rdm, but it's pretty down to the wire, had ~80s left. I like rdm better than whm for phalanx2 early and more options to sleep gears when popping lac later on.

if you aggro the ramparts in LAC room right you don't get the single gear links, only the tri gear and the rampart. look at what i wrote on BGwiki for SSR2 to see how.