So how about that Connecticut Elementary School Shooting; Troll at Your Own Risk

[Plow]

also booker's in ur chest, fisting ur gunshot wounds




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrjdt2LMi1M

^ full segment


nsfl warning: large quantities of grover norquist

[Eleven19]

I had the pleasure (or displeasure if you don't like training) of going through one of the first active shooter simulators for an ILEETA Course specifically for active shooters right after Columbine. The first scenario was running towards a building while 50 people are running out and the shooter is coming out of the building firing at the backs of the people running towards me. Basically I had to jump and shield my way through the thrall while trying to find cover in an open parking lot before I could get within 25 yards of the subject to kill him and my first three shots failed to hit vital targets (head, center of mass). And I have military training backing me up. And it was just a simulation.

#1: Neph, you are a badass and I don't know who you are or what you are currently employed doing/training for, but thank you for doing it.

#2: My first reaction to the whole "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun etc;" after hearing that shooter shot his way into the school; was.. why isn't the first consideration heavier doors and checkpoints at the school entrances during school hours? For instance, 8:30 or whichever time, a school would lock down, and the only access is through a main security entrance through whatever would be considered industry standard bullet-proof type doors into perhaps a metal detector?

I know nothing about this sort of thing, I'm honestly asking why no media or politician has brought this up. Having a security guard with a gun isn't a preventative measure, its reactive, like Neph said. That shouldn't be something they're jumping to without exhausting the preventative measures.. Right?

[Ksandra]

#1: Neph, you are a badass and I don't know who you are or what you are currently employed doing/training for, but thank you for doing it.

#2: My first reaction to the whole "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun etc;" after hearing that shooter shot his way into the school; was.. why isn't the first consideration heavier doors and checkpoints at the school entrances during school hours? For instance, 8:30 or whichever time, a school would lock down, and the only access is through a main security entrance through whatever would be considered industry standard bullet-proof type doors into perhaps a metal detector?

I know nothing about this sort of thing, I'm honestly asking why no media or politician has brought this up. Having a security guard with a gun isn't a preventative measure, its reactive, like Neph said. That shouldn't be something they're jumping to without exhausting the preventative measures.. Right?

Because most media outlets are republicans who don't want to spend more money on schools.


Either solution, sad to say, is unrealistic in most communities. Hell, most schools can't even afford to pay gym teachers.

[Nephlite]

Because most media outlets are republicans who don't want to spend more money on schools.


Either solution, sad to say, is unrealistic in most communities. Hell, most schools can't even afford to pay gym teachers.

It's a very sad reality but people don't realize the current downward spiral of public safety across the nation. Like I mentioned earlier (or perhaps in another thread), some towns are completely disbanding their police forces due to lack of funds/lack of need and they have an average population index of around 15,000. Then a shooting or something occurs and suddenly they scream "Where's the police?!". First thing that always goes during restructuring/funding cuts is public safety.

#1: Neph, you are a badass and I don't know who you are or what you are currently employed doing/training for, but thank you for doing it.

#2: My first reaction to the whole "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun etc;" after hearing that shooter shot his way into the school; was.. why isn't the first consideration heavier doors and checkpoints at the school entrances during school hours? For instance, 8:30 or whichever time, a school would lock down, and the only access is through a main security entrance through whatever would be considered industry standard bullet-proof type doors into perhaps a metal detector?

I know nothing about this sort of thing, I'm honestly asking why no media or politician has brought this up. Having a security guard with a gun isn't a preventative measure, its reactive, like Neph said. That shouldn't be something they're jumping to without exhausting the preventative measures.. Right?

#1. Thanks but the stuff I did is something any LEO can or has done so can't brag about it. It's opportunities that you can take advantage of in the Military and a Police Department that can make you a more prepared/well trained person. Every time new training or class comes down the pipe, i'm the first on it. I love training and I love training people so I got some certs to train people in Use of Force. Unfortunately in my department, you have to be an officer for 8+ years to become a street FTO so gotta work on doing that when I rotate back to patrol (only takes 2 years to qualify for Sergeant though, go figure).

#2 I do believe he shot his way through a window to get in to the school because the doors were locked along the exterior (the way it should be). Still, you can make it harder for a perp to get in to a building with bullet resistant glass and security but that won't stop them forever. What will stop them is quick response. Some schools in the District have glass break sensors that notify the local precinct and they send a cruiser out to check on it or door force alarms that do the same thing whenever a door's alarm is tripped. Lock-down is a great way to keep a person at bay just long enough for someone to get to them and kill them or take them down.

Biggest problem is cost. Bullet resistant glass is expensive for small-arms fire protection and goes up depending on the grade. A high caliber round like a 5.56 can penetrate standard bullet resistant glass easily and once you punch through it, that destroys the integrity of the glass so you could just punch it out with your foot or with the stock of the gun. Thick armored glass like in Banks or you see at some Gas Stations can run up the cost tremendously. Imagine trying to resurface glass on an entire school. Better option would be to bar all the windows on the first and second floors, cut off access to the upper floors from the exterior and get solid core doors for the exterior of the building with resistant glass. Physical Security in a nut shell is a fundamental flaw of security operations for our own government, let alone a school. Might seem prison-like or something, but you can't put a persons safety in jeopardy (especially a childs).

When I went to school, it was 8 hour lock-down and the outside was patrolled by a police officer and the interior was patrolled by administrators at every exit. Couldn't get in/out without going to the main entrance which had metal detectors with someone stationed there 24/7. Bars and web-steel on every window and every exit. Security cameras and door alarms everywhere. We still had shootings and drug deals but it was harder there than at other schools. In the end, it's like Ksandra said. Most people don't want to pour more money in to the system because on a whole, they either believe it's a failed system or it's not effective. Where I come from, for every 1 person who graduated high school, there were 4 drop outs. We had tight security in our school but we still dealt with roaches, bad food, mice and rats, cracked floors and unrepaired class rooms that needed renovation badly, surface parking lots that were havens for drug dealers and twisted ankles, a football field that had bald spots, annex buildings with no heat or running water. Shits the norm nowadays.

[Eurell]

Idk about elsewhere, but most schools in Florida have classrooms directly accessible from outside. Its not like one big building with hallways leading to classrooms. It's many buildings with doors all over the outside leading into each class. Hell, a lot of schools use trailers for extra classrooms when they get too many kids enrolled.

So metal detectors and stuff like that really wouldnt work here.

[notorious bum]

Its not like our bottom-of-the-barrel school system could even afford to do anything down here anyways.

[Silenka]

So I haven't caught up on this much but when I picked up my parents at airport today and we were talking about it, my mom said they had stated that they found 2 specific violent games he played a lot online, anybody know what they're blaming?


It sounds like Call of Duty and Counter Strike but I can't find anything definitive.

I haven't really been following it either but gosh, a kid who grew up with guns and was often taken out shooting with his mother playing games that simulate shooting guns? Imagine that.

Didn't see it posted, thought it was a good thought:

Spoiler: show

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i...dXBjSvG-X3.jpg

[CoreyX]

Idk about elsewhere, but most schools in Florida have classrooms directly accessible from outside. Its not like one big building with hallways leading to classrooms. It's many buildings with doors all over the outside leading into each class. Hell, a lot of schools use trailers for extra classrooms when they get too many kids enrolled.

So metal detectors and stuff like that really wouldnt work here.

Yeah I don't really understand how those prison-schools work. Every school down here that I've gone to has been completely open with multiple buildings, entrances and exits everywhere and hundreds of portables in Elementary, Middle, and Highschool. And yet, I don't remember any Floridian school shootings.

[hey]

Prison schools? lol.

My high school locked all doors 24/7 (door stops held them open in the morning, and any could be opened from the inside, or with a teacher's key/ID card). If you wanted to get inside after school started, you rung the doorbell at the front door, and someone let you in. The only time this was ever even inconvenient was when trying to sneak into the school late, but then there's only like a 2 minute window between the doors being closed and attendence being taken anyway, and you could easily ask a friend to let you in anyway.

[Nephlite]

Prison schools? lol.

I can totally understand why though. Fear of kids wandering off, getting snatched, people walking in and robbing kids, etc. Don't remember too terribly much of it but I do remember it was a bitch to skip classes in my school. You had to sneak down in to the boiler rooms to get out the exits that way and usually the rooms were locked so you had to get good at picking locks or stealing the key.

[archibaldcrane]

We had open campus, shit was so cash. If you want your schools locked down just don't have kids because you clearly hate them.

[noblemountain]

Open campus was awesome...I went to school before Columbine though.

[Silenka]

We had open campus, shit was so cash. If you want your schools locked down just don't have kids because you clearly hate them.

Same here, we were able to come and go as we pleased, doors were never locked and there were no metal detectors or buzzing in of any kind. I graduated in '03 and I assume this has changed a bit since I graduated, but I don't know. We did at least start practicing lockdown drills at some point.

There was hardly any crime in our area though, local police used to cruise around other jurisdictions because their own was so boring and lifeless. White as wonderbread town.

[Kerberoz]

Yeah, "prison schools" is what I keep thinking, reading these threads, too. My HS (and middle, and probably elementary, but I can't remember that far) pretty much always had everything unlocked during the day, a dozen exits with no security whatsoever, one officer that mostly just sat in the parking lot for traffic violations, open lunch, no enforcement of hall/library passes, lax attendance-taking... benefits of living in Bumfuck, I guess. Still, we had 600~ students and practically no violence. (this was post-Columbine... before that there was no officer)

[Niiro]

The prison-school thing is mostly an urban/poor/high crime dependent thing.

My middle/high school (post columbine, 9/11, turrists, etc) had pretty lax restrictions. The main doors weren't locked but once classes started people that came in would check in with the main office at the entrance (late students getting hall passes, etc). Students weren't supposed to leave the grounds and come back as they pleased but as long as you weren't doing it habitually or causing any trouble on the reg the faculty didn't give us a hard time about it (there was a Taco Bell, Dunkin Donuts, and a 7-11 all at the same intersection ~1/2 a mile up the road, so kids were bound to sneak out during free periods sometimes).

Pretty densely populated suburban environment, HS had ~1700-2000 students, local incomes were pretty varied but predominantly in the middle class range with those at the upper and lower extremes being in the minority and no real crime issues to speak of. School security is always going to be dependent on the surrounding environment.

Going all-out with things like bullet proof glass and armed police etc. at every school because of an event like this is highly unnecessary and just a knee-jerk reaction to feel safer. A single data point does not a trend make and going to extremes in order to prevent an anomalous event such as this one from happening again is just going to be a waste of resources and only serves to distract people from the broader and more complicated root issues that lead to things like this.

It's akin to your neighbor being struck by lightning and now you walk around in a rubber poncho whenever it looks slightly cloudy. Or fighting terrorism by starting wars in third world countries.

There are better ways to cope with the emotional and psychological aftermath of these events but people have to make an effort to not give into fear-mongering and thinking that throwing money at armed guards and heavier doors is a healthy and productive long term solution. Unfortunately we as a society are nothing if not (over)reactionary and sensationalist.

[Acevalefor]

Another "Back in my Day" story!
One of the high schools that I went to had just over 200 students in 9-12th grades. It was open campus, open/unlocked doors, and no security of any kind. Hell, several of us (me included) brought our rifles to school and left them in our vehicles during hunting season so we could go hunting after school. It was a mountain town where we relied on that hunting to eat. There was no concerns about the presence of rifles on school property. We could not bring them inside obviously, but that was about as far as safety concerns went. Columbine and Thurston happened my freshman year yet nothing changed. It wasn't until 2001 when "terrorist" became a fear mongering word that the school decided to close the campus and ban guns on campus. Because high school students in a mountain town make great terrorists....

[Eurell]

. Because high school students in a mountain town make great terrorists....

Wasn't Columbine only a few miles from some mountains?

[Acevalefor]

Wasn't Columbine only a few miles from some mountains?

That was a terrorist attack?

[Eurell]

That was a terrorist attack?

Semantically I suppose not. But does that word really change much? I guess I just don't think you're making a very good point with that post., unless I'm completely misunderstanding it.

[Churchill]

did you think it was sarcasm