Friend in trouble - advice appreciated

[Blubbartron]

It's worth mentioning that Churchill's definition of physical beauty and desirability is a relatively contemporary one. In ancient Greece, being overweight/slightly fat (not morbidly obese) was looked fondly upon as a sign of richness and fertility (men able to provide with money, women able to provide with dem child-bearin' hips).

Who's to say society won't swing back that way again? Humanity is a fickle lot, changes its mind all the time. Which is yet another reason why firm statements like "all [subgroup] are [inane statement about personality]" is not just arrogant, but flat out wrong.

[archibaldcrane]

Even when it comes to looks men have a much harder time than women since they need to lift regularly and have a much lower bodyfat % to be considered "attractive" (an attractive woman can get away with almost no muscle tissue and 20% body fat, which is considered borderline obese for men).

face

meet palm

[Ksandra]

It was only a matter of time before lifting came into this thread. (my least favorite meme btw)

[Milkster]

It was only a matter of time before lifting came into this thread. (my least favorite meme btw)

You have to lift ice cream cones.

[Churchill]

hahah, I do actually, but I agree I'm more worried about it in regards to his job than maybe his looks. What he does is a talent and gets his name in movie credits. I feel many women would be attracted to a man in that profession. I am not like, crazy in that I don't let him have women friends, but I do get jealous/nervous when he does.

And ya I agree that what I'm talking about is long-term vs. short term. But both need to be addressed. A lot of what you have talked about seem more catered to short-term/one-night stands. Which I think should be clarified as I think many who are taking issue with your comments wouldn't if they thought it was only about short-terms. You gave the dating site example, very rarely are people in there looking for a long-term relationship, or if they are end up getting frustrated very quickly when nothing seems to pan out with people they hook up with there. I only have two friends that used them who talked to me about their experiences and both seemed to confirm the idea that those on dating sites may be lonely and want a companion, but more often or not the dates turned into one night of fun and then the companion moved on to someone else.

To an extent. There is no shortage of good looking women who are also great people.

[Ksandra]

To an extent. There is no shortage of good looking women who are also great people.

never said there were, it does not mean that's attractiveness is what people are looking for when it comes to long-term/marriage. Some are, but some it's just icing on the cake.

[Kohan]

never said there were, it does not mean that's attractiveness is what people are looking for when it comes to long-term/marriage. Some are, but some it's just icing on the cake.

This is true, and the first link that Church provided supports it: http://www.livescience.com/8779-fert...manly-men.html

In some of his other posts, he had mentioned people conflating short-term relationships and long-term relationships, but he had also mentioned feminism and other matters that have nothing whatsoever to do with the links that he provided. A mixture of fact and opinion is sly, and quite good at convincing people who will not do their own research. (The fact that he provided some links is good, as the burden of proof was on him; unfortunately, they do not qualify every statement of his that isn't related to strict biological matters.)

To be quite honest, after reading through all of them and his links, I can't even understand what his final point is. Is it that he likes to have short-term relationships with attractive women? If that's the case, that's fine. There are plenty of women who would want to have short-term relationships with men, just as well. Is that he doesn't want to ever engage in a long-term relationship himself? That's also fine, so long as the partners he's with aren't mislead into believing otherwise. (If they then turn around and say "but you promised me we'd have forever!" when that was a blatant lie on their part, he has every right to get out of that relationship.) And if that's all he's saying, why is it wrapped up in all this rhetoric?

It's as if he's trying to convince people of his own personal opinions being fact by mixing in facts here and there, and that's underestimating the intelligence of the average reader.

[Kellanved]

To be quite honest, after reading through all of them and his links, I can't even understand what his final point is.

Not surprising. His primary argument appears to be that human females are subservient and exist to be dominated by human males. Whatever else he has written is like so much dross. He admits to exceptions but he is too manly to qualify his statements for you and he personally keeps his pimp hand skrong. So deal with it. The position is simplistic in the extreme. The conceit beyond absurd, though obviously not unique. Carry on.

[shaddix]

It's worth mentioning that Churchill's definition of physical beauty and desirability is a relatively contemporary one. In ancient Greece, being overweight/slightly fat (not morbidly obese) was looked fondly upon as a sign of richness and fertility (men able to provide with money, women able to provide with dem child-bearin' hips).

Who's to say society won't swing back that way again? Humanity is a fickle lot, changes its mind all the time. Which is yet another reason why firm statements like "all [subgroup] are [inane statement about personality]" is not just arrogant, but flat out wrong.

A .6-.8 waist:hip ratio has always been an ideal. You speak as though what triggers the loins changes, but this number has been consistent since antiquity. A sexy lady today would be a sexy lady thousands of years ago as well.

[Churchill]

I will admit this aspect of my statements I am no expert on, and like behavioral psychology, evolutionary psychology is often looked down upon by normal psychologists because they feel that what a person says/talks about are paramount to determining their issues. I haven't met very many people who articulately or accurately state the way they feel in real life, though their actions and the root cause of those actions are easily read and determined.

The references to feminism have to do with society looking at every issues from a feminine point of view. More precisely, that when something is taken into consideration or discussed it is discussed with the feminine imperative in mind. No account is taken for what a man wants, because as you all know, men are simple little creatures incapable of anything but staring at boobs and making poop jokes. They need women to guide them to a better purpose, they need to get in touch with their feminine side. Sixty years of this from our grandfathers on down has created a world that scorns masculinity, that creates TV shows where the main character is a dumb man in constant need of his wifes guidance, where men who choose to date younger women are described as "childish" or "afraid of a strong woman". If you take the time to look, you can see this effect in many aspects of your every day life.

The crux of the argument that evolutionary psychologists would make is that by promoting that men are so awful and women so great, it creates a society that doesn't appreciate men and women who don't appreciate them either. By ignoring that there are inherent differences between the sexes you ignore the benefits they provide to each other. Men and women are capable of performing each others roles in society or traditional society but that does not mean it's a comfortable position for them to be in. By disenfranchising men and creating men who are completely unaware of their own value, you degrade society as a whole. (As men traditionally build society and progress it further) By changing the dynamics of monogamous relationships, you weaken their actual bonds. If women seek to find the best mate they can and this factor plays a role in all of their decisions, by making men obsolete you make families obsolete - creating single parents and more children with a true source of masculinity to base men off of. Cue the initial woman this topic sought to help. She clearly has no idea what a strong man should act like and easily mistakes his overt struggle for power and control as someone who is actually in control.

I read this paper awhile ago, so you can choose to read it if you wish. The 48 Laws of Power linked earlier are also a good read.

http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm


@Kellen
You seem to be upset.

[kuronosan]

Holy fuck Churchill.... Quite the intellectual.

[Ksandra]

A .6-.8 waist:hip ratio has always been an ideal. You speak as though what triggers the loins changes, but this number has been consistent since antiquity. A sexy lady today would be a sexy lady thousands of years ago as well.

you...you do realize that doesn't counter what blubbartron said at all...right? You understand what a ratio is...right?

[Apelila]

It's important to me that you feel that way.

And we break out the sarcasm, nice.

I'm sorry I gave the impression that this matters to me at all. It doesn't. As someone who has fucked alphas for fun and profit for the better part of a decade though, your type is so easy to spot you might as well have it tattooed across your chest so that there is no second guessing. I, like women, enjoy being right. I've been telling you as subtly as I can where the point of failure in your logic is, but allow me to be more direct. And if you think I am wrong then please, tell me I am wrong and enjoy all the pussy you get. Until you don't. The "I told you so" is going to echo across across time and space and even if I never get to say it personally, that shiver I get randomly some day in the future just better not happen when I'm driving. And if it never happens? I'll still easily go back to sleep at night. I'm going back to bed after I type this.

Allow me to be blunt, and as specific as I can be from my own observations. The best book I've ever read on the subject is this, which culls the search results of half a billion peoples sex searches.

Everything in the spoiler is creme.

You are painting all women with the same brush. I am going to tell you how men work. Specifically how you are presenting yourself, and why most women when confronted with that personality of man will instantly decide:

1: He's an asshole
2: He's hot
3: I'll fuck him then never, ever speak to him again.
4: Oh, that was really good. Shit.

Many women who are top tier will get to step 4, be annoyed, and will just brush it off and never repeat the cycle. Some will go back to 2 a a few times. If you are really good, you can get them stuck in this cycle. That is how high dollar whores make their money, except replace asshole with whore and flip the pronoun. Usually.

Your path is taking you down the road where you meet a girl who's thought process goes:

1: He's an asshole
2: He's hot
3: I'll fuck him then decide.
4: Oh, that was really good. Shit.

Ask yourself if you really want that as the mother of your kids. Because everything from there is going to be built on the thought of "how much of this bullshit can I tolerate and for what?". I do not know you, after you get past sex you might be a wonderful person. But the theories you have presented here on sex tell me that your demeanor in the bedroom is consistent and does not, and will not change without you being tied down and told what to do. Those are some of my most favorite clients. Now:

You aren't invincible. One far off day from now something is going to take you down a peg; and when it does, something closer to that first gambit is going to fire. I'm not going to dig through posts and get quotes, but you've stated Multiple opinion, and here is how they read.

You don't care what a woman can do for you as long as they arouse you.
You have no interest in a woman who is going to point out something you are doing that is 'wrong'. If at any point you suspect your lady is trying to guide you, you're going to stop. If your lady can't get past this urge, you will stop permanently.
You have no interest in a woman who has nothing to offer you financially, and no interest in anything a woman has to offer you emotionally.

Spoiler: show

To practically every woman out there, you are a dick with a salary attached. Which is bigger? Are they both 'cute'? You do realize some women want 'cute' over 'holy fuck that's hot'.

Now: you have every right to be that! Go on bragging about it, and being a fixture on that dick carousel. Just remember to get off before you get replaced. You seem to think that you can stay on that thing into your 40's and well, EL OH freaking EL.

At 40 you have to have a fucking wonderful personality for a partner to look past how much your making, especially a 20 year old. I'm not posting this because you've offended me, or because I care. Consider it a professional slut who's had his own very rude wake up call recently giving you a heads up as to what happens when the physical attraction melts away. That isn't to say there are not hot 40 year old's, but they're off the carousel already. It's too risky. They've built their own, and the people who make it up know what they are. But those people will fade away with time. Sometimes much faster than you think will happen.

I've spent enough nights with lonely 40 year old's who are making silly amounts of money who are very, VERY hot to know that if you are fundamentally so damaged that you can't allow someone to get close to you it doesn't matter how good of a catch you are. Eventually, people will stop trying. And if you enjoy being chased after over doing the chasing, which it sounds like you do, then you're going to be put in a very awkward spot when you reach an age where the only women left are the best ones at running away.

So go on being your bad ass self, and I hope you find someone you can settle for and get off the carousel. But don't state matter-of-factually that all women are the same creature. To answer your question:

Why making a decision based on cost/benefit is objectifying women?

Because that is exactly what you are doing. You are comparing women in a way that is:
"What is better, and what do I want?" not "Who is better, and why do I want them?" and you are so god damn self important you can't see the difference. As I said before I typed all that, women see this and instantly decide how far they'll take it but only up to sleeping with you. And then they'll run for you to chase, or chase after you. It all depends on how you lead. You have established yourself as the leader, and better not years down the road decide you don't want to anymore or you'll have yourself a very might train wreck when she tries to take control.

After that, they'll let it repeat while they gather more and more information in cause the initial judgement was wrong. Some will walk away much sooner than others however the moment a woman thinks she's a pair of tits and an ass to you then it is a whole different decision tree depending on what point of the relationship you are at.

God help you if you have married someone who starts to feel that way. Because there is going to be some asshole like me there who is going to rub her face in it, who has absolutely no concern with what happens to you. Hence, this thread.

[Churchill]

I'll add that I don't want it to sound like I feel there is an overarching conspiracy by feminism or a secret group determining that men should be put down. I don't feel this way because the inherent ideas are so pervasive I don't feel women or men realize how misandric some of our social constructs really are.

I would blame men for anything that has happened to them (us) because of our automatic desire to placate what a woman wants. We value women more than we do ourselves and our desire to protect and accommodate them has proven detrimental to our own well being. In any common example of "the evil patriarchy" such as women gaining the right to vote, we see that (men) were the ones to vote it in once a majority of the women wanted it to be so. (Though initially, the issue was brought up and most women had no desire to involve themselves in politics)

If the patriarchy existed, it wasn't very good at doing its job. I think the idea of the evil patriarchy primarily stems from women seeing men in charge of powerful positions and saying, "If I was in charge it would be different, I'd make women a priority in everything"...and that must be what men do. Men, CEO's, Vice-Presidents, whatever can surely be greedy as fuck but in doing so they don't promote men but promote themselves. I think you would be hard pressed to find a group of men throughout history who used their power to make men more powerful. The evil patriarchy where the common man worked in a coal mine while his wife was at home relatively safe, causing him to live a shorter and much more difficult life, seems like a raw deal for the man.

[Apelila]

That is a good point. But it sounds like an excellent deal for the politician, because its half the population he doesn't have to worry about. Ask Mitt Romney how treating women badly worked out for him. And he isn't even the one who did it.

Spoiler: show

Edit: I'd like to add, I agree with your stance but from another perspective.
If you throw kids or some sort of social injustice into a mix women, as a majority, lose their heads and ignore whatever other political motivations a person has. The country as a whole does this but really its just to shut up the harpies (Not you ladies. There is a difference)

Prohibition, racial segregation, the war on drugs, the war on gays where/are all built around 'protecting the innocent/children'. Ignore the fact that the people promoting them are making money hand over fist off it. but now I'm off topic, and tired. G'night.

[Churchill]

@Apelila

A lot of redundant projections and feelings, so I'll ask you a question. If what you are saying is true, and women instantly see me for some womanizing misogynist who makes them tingle, why could I take nearly any of them into a monogamous LTR if that was what I wanted? (I have, at times) Why do I still get phone calls, text messages, etc, with propositions of meeting up and rekindling that flame? I still get this attention from the first girl I slept with and that was over 10 years ago now. She's certainly had her share of other men and admittedly only does this with me and she can't figure out why.

Answer me why the "fuck him and never speak to him again" never actually happens? When I was younger, I'd move hell and high water to get some action but as I gained more experience (and was thus more attractive) I'd have these same women moving hell and high water just to see me? They sought my attention because I was the prize to them. They jokingly ask me about "the other girls", secretly knowing that other women would find me just as attractive as she does and so her actions are meant to secure a more monogamous attention from me.

I don't have a problem pair bonding with specific women, but I certainly won't be getting married at my age without achieving my own personal goals and I certainly won't forgo entertaining multiple interesting women for a monogamous relationship without it providing benefits to me that I would otherwise be without.

You mistakenly attribute my writing to trying to be a bad ass or popular on the internet. The question was asked of me, and so I responded. At no single point have I bragged about the number of women I've fucked or discussed how awesome it is to pump and dump bar sluts. I don't feel this way about women and I certainly don't approve of objectifying their attention to something as simple as being a receptacle for my sperm. The comments that even hint (or overtly reside) in this realm have come from other people attempting to defend their egos and their view of the world. I don't ask that you agree with me or even that you read what I have to say, but if you are interested in hearing a male perspective on this topic then I feel I am more than qualified to add an educated opinion.

[Milkster]

When the sex is good people try to make it something more because of the hormones that come from amazing sex. Dopamine is a bitch.

[Churchill]

Oh I know why. The question is for Apelila to rebut. Pair bonding is a very important aspect of sexual relations.

[Apelila]

@Apelila

A lot of redundant projections and feelings, so I'll ask you a question. If what you are saying is true, and women instantly see me for some womanizing misogynist who makes them tingle, why could I take nearly any of them into a monogamous LTR if that was what I wanted? (I have, at times) Why do I still get phone calls, text messages, etc, with propositions of meeting up and rekindling that flame? I still get this attention from the first girl I slept with and that was over 10 years ago now. She's certainly had her share of other men and admittedly only does this with me and she can't figure out why.

Answer me why the "fuck him and never speak to him again" never actually happens? When I was younger, I'd move hell and high water to get some action but as I gained more experience (and was thus more attractive) I'd have these same women moving hell and high water just to see me? They sought my attention because I was the prize to them. They jokingly ask me about "the other girls", secretly knowing that other women would find me just as attractive as she does and so her actions are meant to secure a more monogamous attention from me.

I don't have a problem pair bonding with specific women, but I certainly won't be getting married at my age without achieving my own personal goals and I certainly won't forgo entertaining multiple interesting women for a monogamous relationship without it providing benefits to me that I would otherwise be without.

You mistakenly attribute my writing to trying to be a bad ass or popular on the internet. The question was asked of me, and so I responded. At no single point have I bragged about the number of women I've fucked or discussed how awesome it is to pump and dump bar sluts. I don't feel this way about women and I certainly don't approve of objectifying their attention to something as simple as being a receptacle for my sperm. The comments that even hint (or overtly reside) in this realm have come from other people attempting to defend their egos and their view of the world. I don't ask that you agree with me or even that you read what I have to say, but if you are interested in hearing a male perspective on this topic then I feel I am more than qualified to add an educated opinion.

When the sex is good people try to make it something more because of the hormones that come from amazing sex. Dopamine is a bitch.

Can't sleep had to take care of business, mind went to too many happy places thinking of things done in the past.

I have been mistaken to take the opinions of others into my own opinion of your stance. I have not been mistaken in your stance: You are asserting that unless it benefits you, why bother?

The first girl you slept with set you as a high bar. You're good. You must be damn good, or big, or whatever. See what Milkster said. She can't get that high with anyone else. Both metaphorically and hormonally. "fuck him and never speak to him again" never happens to you because you're that good, or that good of a catch. The kind of woman you've dealt with isn't in it for money, they're in it to enjoy themselves.

Either something will break that cycle for her or it won't. Nothing you continue to do on purpose continues that cycle. This is my point. Eventually you will not be the high bar, and you are not ready mentally for when that happens. Lucienne stated her very valid reasons why she's just enjoying the ride until her 30's and you came in and told her no, younger women are more valuable. You listed your reasons, but they are just that: yours. I have made no claim that I am not projecting, in fact I went into that post with one specific point : your type is easy to spot.

It's not my task to answer why those women are still calling you, the context may be different but the answer is the same. They want to use you.

Why they want to use you is a question of what you have to offer them. As someone who's had a long term but ultimately temporary physical impairment recently, which lowered me from a good solid 8 to a 3, I think I can say that. The reason you've stated that women chase after you is you get their juices flowing. That is important to them, but it is important to you? Again, one day it might happen through no fault of your own that your juice factory shuts down. What will you be left with then, and will it attract the same women for the same reasons?

[shaddix]

you...you do realize that doesn't counter what blubbartron said at all...right? You understand what a ratio is...right?

Why mention it then?