Friend in trouble - advice appreciated

[Ksandra]

I'm not talking about church making his point, because there is a ton of it I don't agree with. I was trying to help form a connection between what he said and what you think he said and you are attacking me for it. I respond in kind because you're acting as if I think you're a baby-popping tramp who should drown her child and I don't even think that.

This is the very reason I was going to stay away from this topic.

problem is, your example is still not what should be done.

He is saying if your baby acts like she is drowning every time you put her in the water you don't just assume she is drowning and pull her out. You need to teach her what a bath is and not to throw a tantrum.

1. you should assume an 8 month has the potential to drown if she puts her head in the water no matter how many times she does it at this age.
2. she wasn't throwing a temper tantrum, she is (for your psychology which you claimed I know nothing) at the oral fixation stage of development. everything goes in her mouth, including the cat tail. that is how she tries to learn. That does not mean it can't be dangerous and all situations where she could choke should not be ignored
3. while you weren't talking about church's point I was countering it, you can't ignore the frame of the conversation to understand why I am saying what he says is stupid when he specifically asked me what I did with my daughter assume I would say I ignore her.

[Nirokun!]

I don't know what to say in this thread, I read for a while, start hating men, and stop reading. All of this bullshit telling me how I should think and feel would upset me soooo fast.

Luci, dear, I hope your friend is okay.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Church's trolling came full circle as we went from comparing adult women to dogs and now 8 month old babies.

[kuronosan]

I'm going to stop replying to you now. All you are reading from my responses are suggestions when I haven't given you any.

[Ksandra]

Church's trolling came full circle as we went from comparing adult women to dogs and now 8 month old babies.

p. much

[Lucienne]

Honestly speaking, a girl is tend to be raised quite differently in their upbringing. It all depends on the parents and culture. Also, any girl who is that rebellious and gives their parents a hard time such as the ones in our current awesome generation these days are a big pile of shit and need to be avoided. There are plenty of nice girls out there, why men settle for piles of shit just because they are attractive is beyond me. Being attractive gives them power over you and then withdrawing sex whenever they feel like just to put you on a leash? Yeah no thanks.

You realize he wasn't talking about parenting girls, right.
In an adult relationship, if you aren't happy with your partner's behavior, you can point it out for them, if they agree with you, they can start working on changing it. If they don't, that's their choice. You're free to leave them at any time.

Anyway, I'm not talking about you when I say this but this situation reminds me more on when a guy wants to take away the girl for himself by manipulating her into what's right or wrong. If she's 30, let her fucking decide for herself who she wants to be with and quit crying over this petty shit. Worry about yourself and let her be, let her come to you if she needs help and stop trying to enforce shit in her mind.

I like to give people the benefit of a doubt before dismissing them, so I'm going to assume you're actually uninformed as opposed to dumb or trolling.
You might want to read some of the links people have provided. Please, don't post shit if you don't know what you're talking about.

Uh, everyone realizes Churchill is pretty much word-for-word reciting The Game, right? Neil Strauss? Style? Mystery even says in the book women are likes dogs - you train them by "rewarding" good behavior and "punishing" the bad. Nothing Churchill is saying is unique or original, lol.

Yeah it's all psychology and it sounds crazy but it works. Everyone (chicks included) do yourselves a favor and read The Game. Fascinating book if only for the sheer insanity of stories in it. Strauss is a phenomenal writer.

Haven't heard of, will check it out.

To be misogynistic, however, is retarded. I have known many women to be just the way he describes them. I have also known many who are not.

It goes both ways.

The problem, as Kohan pointed out, isn't that he's delusional or wrong, it's that he's treating genders as homogenous masses that only react to one certain kind of stimuli with no exceptions and it's a dangerous approach.

See the above, and I'll still do that. I describe men and women as animals because the type of psychology I subscribe to is one that believes our more primal natures are behind a large majority of our actions. If I am to deal with irrational behavior, I will make it known that I will not. I will do this by withholding what she seeks, attention. I will reward her with it when it stops and a more positive behavior replaces it. If she wants to tell me she thinks gun control is a good idea, I will tell her this is amurika and she will present a rational or irrational argument.

Can we please stop calling women bitches, at least for the sake of this discussion.

On a serious note, you're restricting yourself to a terminology that is perceived as hostile by a part of your audience, which does not benefit you in getting your point through. It really depends on what you're after, making a point or angering Ksandra.

This is Amurika is a perfectly rational argument.

Good thing it wasn't in the GW2 section.

lol

I don't know what to say in this thread, I read for a while, start hating men, and stop reading. All of this bullshit telling me how I should think and feel would upset me soooo fast.

Luci, dear, I hope your friend is okay.

Manipulating and playing games is something both genders do, to what extend varies from individual to individual. What Churchill is saying isn't essentially dumb, take it as a window into the male game brought to an extreme. Most of the puppets following him in here are just trying to ride that success wagon and would probably never be able to execute the same level of arrogance on their own.

I think she'll be ok. She's aware of him being controlling now, and she's made back up plans for her trip. She has a list of hostels, she has friends she can contact in case of emergency, both me and her sister have offered to help her out financially should it be necessary. She's expecting problems and she's prepared for them. Why she still wants to go through with this despite all that is beyond me, but at least i think she has gained a bit of a distance to it now.

Shouldn't you be busy teaching your son to not drown in bathtubs instead?

[Abandon]

eggroll is too superior to drown in bathtubs, that little boy is a fucking pimp

[Churchill]

I don't know what to say in this thread, I read for a while, start hating men, and stop reading. All of this bullshit telling me how I should think and feel would upset me soooo fast.

Luci, dear, I hope your friend is okay.

I would be curious to know if you feel the effects of hypergamy as an MTF. They are not present in pussy/submissive/feminine men.

[Gokulo]

If I'm remembering correctly, Elites shouldn't be giving any relationship advices

[Nirokun!]

I would be curious to know if you feel the effects of hypergamy as an MTF. They are not present in pussy/submissive/feminine men.

I had to google that.

When I was younger, I was more attracted to older men because I saw them as big/strong/stable/mature. Obviously I didn't act on it. But as I got older (and maybe because my guy friends grew on me), that didn't matter. I feel as though there's reason to suspect a man who's older and looks good on paper, but is unattached. It crosses my mind that maybe his gf/wife were "crazy", but it is still something I would suspect.

Mostly what attracts me to a man (and this is an easy cutoff), is height. I'm 5'11" and I just don't get the same feeling from shorter men, and it makes me uncomfortable. Besides that, my little brother said that every guy that I liked was "just okay". I'm all for being with my tall, nerdy best friend, whoever that may be.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

eggroll is too superior to drown in bathtubs, that little boy is a fucking pimp

He just turned 2 and eggroll already has foreign tang hanging off his peanut sauce

[Manako]

Been following this thread for a while.. what to say...

To me a the man that churchill is describing would be the same sort as the woman who uses reverse-psychology and passive-aggressiveness to get what she wants. The idea that Men need to feel important to succeed in life, and be sure to make him feel that way even when really its the woman who is pulling the strings. Also, women should pull the strings because they know what is best for the man, who is emotionally stunted and can be led to behave in an expected behavior with enough conditioning. Certainly the means are different but the ends are the same?

Its very weird to be raised slightly out of the social construct that creates churchill's nice little pigeon holes, or at least in an environment where no one explicitly told me to behave "like a girl." I am the oldest of 3 girls, where my dad wanted a boy -- for whatever reason he dealt with it by not caring about gender roles and I pretty much did whatever I wanted. He was big into video games, so I was able to get immersed in that hobby and watched boy shows and played with legos, micro machines, and He-man along with the more normal array of girls toys. In kindergarten I was frustrated that the boys wouldn't let me play in the sandbox because it was a "boy toy"

For a long time I tried very hard to be "one of the guys" I shunned makeup and clothes shopping and avoided other things that I had considered blatantly female, I proclaimed that I didn't have many female friends, thought women were mostly annoying any way which is why I couldn't put up with them. I wanted to be equal, and ignored most gender studies because I didn't want to read about things that would destroy my sense of self. I am a woman, why should I need to read about how I am supposed to think?

Then I entered the workforce, and things kinda changed. I work in a male-dominated field, but my company has a larger than average number of women in technical roles. As a company we are considered different from most because we are more collaborative than other companies, which is attributed to the number of women in the group. Personally I was now surrounded by peers with the same outlook on life, who were also female, and actually began doing more female oriented hobbies while still maintaining my past interests. I also became more interested in gender studies I guess... I will have to read Church's reccomendation I suppose so far I've gotten mostly through "new Perspective on Gender and Gaming" http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Barbie-...+mortal+kombat I've read a fair amount of articles on the whole hunter vs gatherer ideal and also read some feminist blogs to see what they were about.

I think the studies Church has referenced really does account for the lowest common denominator, if society were to fall we would revert to that ideal where the woman would tend nest and man would provide -- certainly there were exceptions in the past there would be in this supposed future. In the here and now I think there is less of a need for the distinction between genders and so it is less pronounced, but its still true that men are more likely to have masculine traits than women, additionally society commends men for behaving like men (and women for behaving like woman) and calls men pussies for doing things that are "unmanly" at this point its really the men who get the short end of the stick.

I really like this article on the CEO of Yahoo, who just recently announced her pregnancy http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...yer/56323292/1. Most women would not have the drive to want to both run a large company and raise a child, she would be a prime example of who church isnt talking about. The article itself goes on to debate gender roles and how society is quick to condemn women who won't put their children.

Anyway before I get further adrift/off topic (this is a very interesting topic to me) Relationship-wise I want to be a part of an effective team, I feel my husband is my equal but that we have different strengths. Going along with the gender line I am the one who organizes social outings and he is the one who maintains the car (its my car but to me its a hassle). Going against, he does the dishes (i hate that job) and I drive (he doesn't complain one bit!) I can worry all day about whether I'm empowered enough, but I am happy in my life and that is what matters. If we have a problem, we talk about it, if I'm being annoying he tells me straight -- not withholding some carrot on a string. In life I strive for a happy medium, I think its healthier.

When people talk about men and women "in general" I wonder if are they referring to the core traits that present themselves in varying amounts in each person, or if it is more that out of 100% of the population a subset of the people behave the same way, and the other larger group all behave so differently they are not part of the data point. And if men are so innately masculine why fear the downfall of the alpha man if it is not something that can be destroyed?

[Churchill]

I'll address two things.

The idea is not to psychologically force behavior (on the whole) but to recognize which cues force which reaction due to evolutionary traits inherent in men and women. Doing the dishes is irrelevant to man or woman.

And if men are so innately masculine why fear the downfall of the alpha man if it is not something that can be destroyed?

This is the precise line fem-centric viewpoints would want society to believe. You've spent your whole life trying to be a man for whichever reason was important at the time. It is no surprise that you also think that an idea cannot be suppressed if it is inherent, of course it can't, you're still a woman right? A search for security is always paramount, whether it is achieved from a man or from your own efforts it is that need for security that drives you. Men seek status, and in that search often fail.

I feel bad for Meyer's kid. I can only imagine how unsuccessful he'll be with a dominant mother and no real example of masculinity.

[Ksandra]

I honestly doubt church could convince me otherwise. With all the stomping of the feet on this, those in the thread that are in actual long-lasting successful relationships have countered it.

Again, his statements work in regards to short-term and abusive situations. yes, there are women weak enough for male dominance to the degree he spouts out, but those relationships aren't healthy at all, and often lead to break-ups/divorces/cheating/etc. It doesn't matter who you point the finger at, whether it's feminism, society, or inherent traits. Reality is, more women are becoming more empowered, and you can scream till the cows come home that nature doesn't want to be that way, that's not going to make your woman stay with you when she's had enough of your bs.


I just hope that anyone reading this grasps the concept that The Game is great for landing chicks, but is not so great for keeping them, unless you wanted an animal rather than a partner.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I just hope that anyone reading this grasps the concept that The Game is great for landing chicks, but is not so great for keeping them, unless you wanted an animal rather than a partner.

http://i.minus.com/ibkiO1hyyVMfVR.gif

[Lucienne]

http://i.minus.com/ibkiO1hyyVMfVR.gif

I thought you'd get the point the first time.
There is a time and place for everything.
Learn to contribute or gtfo.
Yep, I went there. What are you gonna do about it?

[kuronosan]

I have been with my now-wife for five years of a lot of shit, patience, and hard work. Much of my problems have been talked about here on BG and with advice from many I was able to man up and take control and end up with a great relationship.

I don't subscribe to the type of treatment Churchill advocates because frankly it doesn't work for me or my wife. Mutual respect is the way to go.

Just because I don't agree with what he advocates does not mean his theory is flawed because it has roots in psychological processes that go back to the beginnings of man and basic needs. I also don't believe in total gender neutrality or equality. It's as absurd to think gender lines can be erased any more than racial lines can. You can stem the tide of racism easily by eliminating prejudice but it does not mean races and racial differences don't exist. Likewise, gender differences do exist and to ignore those differences is to embody sexism with open arms.

You should be proud of that which makes you a man or a woman - just not to the point where you seek to subvert the other for your own desires. What I got from Church's garbled intellectual crap was pretty much "men should be allowed to be men and women should be allowed to be women" coupled with "stop trying to be the other gender because it biologically and psychologically won't work".

The rest of it is tripe and should be treated as such.

As for how to raise your baby, do what you want. I'm not here to bark a hierarchy of needs at you and tell you how to progress your infant but please don't think me the type of person who thinks you can teach an infant how to walk just by reinforcement alone.

Classical conditioning, however, works at any point during childhood development. If you don't believe me, the next time your infant cries bring her some chocolate. Pretty soon, you'll see that she cries any time she wants something and more often than not, she'll want chocolate and will continue to cry until she gets it.

How I wish you would stop taking my words as if I was imparting personal advice when all I attempted to do was shed light on what is obviously a combination of trolling, truth, and confusion.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I thought you'd get the point the first time.
There is a time and place for everything.
Learn to contribute or gtfo.
Yep, I went there. What are you gonna do about it?

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_as...0223/5KGgu.gif

[Ksandra]

you seem to think kuro that just because I say it isn't healthy means I don't believe conditioning exists. You think I am twisting your words when you are doing the exact same thing.

I have said several times now that conditioning works, but that I don't find it to be healthy. Also, there are different ways to condition someone. You will find more and more people in the boat of "they're ignoring me? well fuck them, then." today than you would have yesterday. that does not mean that part of them doesn't wants to follow the conditioning formula. Of course the natural chemical side is to follow that. That doesn't mean stubborness can't/won't win. We aren't talking concentration camp type stuff.

As well, a child is more easily conditioned than an adult in these types of situations (I bold this before someone does trying to go into retarded extremes of concentration camps/torture). Ignoring a woman is not extreme enough an action that she will always be conditioned to stop speaking their mind.

And again, of course it works on some, but as more feel free to stand up for themselves you're going to find less and less weak women that are like that.

Also, fuck when did I talk about getting rid of gender lines? Sure is assumption in here. Hell, I'm mostly a stay-at-home mom (work on saturdays only), do the laundry, cleaning, cooking, sewing, etc. And I completely love my "female" role. But when it comes to major decisions (apartment choosing/child's future schooling) we are on equal footing.

I think people blank all women to be hard core feminist nazis and so when a woman posts they don't actually read what they say and just assume we're fighting to be just like men. Fuck I don't want to be a man. Let my husband fix my car and open the door for me. I love that shit.

[Rhyis.]

What is this thread even about now lol