2013 America (and Friends!) Gun Violence Thread No Plows Allowed!

[Dimmauk]

Combat / encounter experience is a HUGE factor that is probably the biggest indicator of how to know someone is full of shit.

"If more people had guns they'd be able to stop it!" Is right up there with people thinking they can fight because they take karate or work out on a bag. Still get knocked the FUCK OUT by a single punch because real life is different from ideal scenarios.

Random people with certs from a gun range would not help, no. People would panic, hurt themselves, others, get themselves killed, etc.

Jmc already said it but tunnel vision is a real thing. You need to be trained / conditioned out of it. Going back to fighting, if you've ever been in actual fight think back to your very first one - where shit just escalated and you were in the thick of it. Bet it was over before you had any fucking clue what was going on. Tunnel vision.

Replaces fists with guns and instead of getting knocked on your ass you'd be dead. Or have killed someone else. Low chance of it being the right person.

This needs to be repeated a billion times

[BerenTebogo]

Just gonna leave this right here...

http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass...#cite_note-377

[archibaldcrane]

Your link's host is crashing

I think a lot of people are "just leaving that here" right now.

[BerenTebogo]

Properly sourced statistics are so hot right now.

[Gredival]

I just pruned the San Bernardino shooting posts. Can continue discussing here why armed people with guns do/don't help an active shooting.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

For me at least I carry because my local LEO presence is non-existent and response time is minimum of 20 minutes. For anything less than an active chainsaw massacre I get routed to voicemail. They are also do to not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm. Because of that my life is my own responsibility to preserve and a firearm under certain conditions is a viable option. Mind you a last-ditch option because my other options like avoidance and situational awareness have failed.

On the other hand I don't buy into the sheepdog mentality bullshit. I'm not gonna be the superhero unless my own life is directly threatened.

[notorious bum]

The other mass shooting that happened today in the United States

A gunman in Savannah, Ga., shot four people early Wednesday, killing a woman and injuring three men.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...united-states/

[FNH]

Combat / encounter experience is a HUGE factor that is probably the biggest indicator of how to know someone is full of shit.

"If more people had guns they'd be able to stop it!" Is right up there with people thinking they can fight because they take karate or work out on a bag. Still get knocked the FUCK OUT by a single punch because real life is different from ideal scenarios.

Random people with certs from a gun range would not help, no. People would panic, hurt themselves, others, get themselves killed, etc.

Jmc already said it but tunnel vision is a real thing. You need to be trained / conditioned out of it. Going back to fighting, if you've ever been in actual fight think back to your very first one - where shit just escalated and you were in the thick of it. Bet it was over before you had any fucking clue what was going on. Tunnel vision.

Replaces fists with guns and instead of getting knocked on your ass you'd be dead. Or have killed someone else. Low chance of it being the right person.

Are you referring to this quote?

All I'll say about that, is tunnel vision can be extremely fatal.

because I thought that was in reference to this

Something something "middle-eastern looking man with beard".

Which I interpreted as "Don't go in thinking you are looking for X person".


Anyway to address your point, I don't think every regular joe that CC's would be helpful in that situation.There are some stupid YeeHaw people out there, but there are many civilians who are as trained or more trained than some cops. Have you seen how little training they really get in some departments? And the qualifications aren't that high, I know one local large city PD only requires 70% acc. So to think that just because they get a badge that they are that much better than someone who doesn't have one is naive. There's probably a better argument against "If more people had guns they'd be able to stop it".

Though you have to consider that if this is an islamic terrorist attack(not confirmed at the time I sat down to type this) like France, they strategically picked a state where they knew gun laws were so prohibitive that they would encounter limited resistance until there was a response by police. I'm further interested in if the San Bernadino police force has a higher response time compared to surrounding areas.

[Salodin]

The other mass shooting that happened today in the United States

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...united-states/

So is there criteria that labels shootings as a mass shooting? Idk if I'd label this as mass shooting; I guess it depends on the context.

[notorious bum]

There is some debate, but I believe it is the FBI that considers a shooting involving 3 or more victims as a mass shooting.

[BerenTebogo]

Are you referring to this quote?

because I thought that was in reference to this

Which I interpreted as "Don't go in thinking you are looking for X person".


Anyway to address your point, I don't think every regular joe that CC's would be helpful in that situation.There are some stupid YeeHaw people out there, but there are many civilians who are as trained or more trained than some cops. Have you seen how little training they really get in some departments? And the qualifications aren't that high, I know one local large city PD only requires 70% acc. So to think that just because they get a badge that they are that much better than someone who doesn't have one is naive. There's probably a better argument against "If more people had guns they'd be able to stop it".

Though you have to consider that if this is an islamic terrorist attack(not confirmed at the time I sat down to type this) like France, they strategically picked a state where they knew gun laws were so prohibitive that they would encounter limited resistance until there was a response by police. I'm further interested in if the San Bernadino police force has a higher response time compared to surrounding areas.

My post isn't about target accuracy, it's about training to react properly in quickly escalating situations (which, yes, many cops are bad at). Missing a shot isn't nearly as dangerous as not being able to process the information in your surroundings due to a spike in adrenaline. Seriously, the average person, trained shooter or not, can not and will not keep their shit together under pressure. This is due to physiological reactions that need to be specifically conditioned out. All military training does it, all professional forms of fighting do it, extreme athletes do it. Not all cops undergo the training, but definitely more than average random person.

That's why when jmc referenced tunnel vision I thought he was talking about this specifically - it is one of the innate physiological responses to a panic situation. Your brain focuses on the perceived threat and the periphery information that is constantly processed in the background takes a back seat to other functions. You literally get tunnel vision.

Tl;dr people are fucking scared unreliable meatbags who are far more likely to lose their shit and get hurt/killed before positively contributing to the situation. I don't want random scared unreliable meatbags to add more guns to a shitty situation. Leave it to slightly more reliable armored meatbags.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para...nervous_system

[BerenTebogo]

So is there criteria that labels shootings as a mass shooting? Idk if I'd label this as mass shooting; I guess it depends on the context.

4 people shot during one event is the metric used for the compilation of data I posted somewhere ago.

[mallister]

go to work tomorrow and look at the people you work with, around, for, and deal with as customers/members/whatever. now imagine half of these sterling examples of humanity locked and loaded, and how they would react when faced with three people walking into your lobby and opening fire.

you know, i'm all for people that are trained and capable bearing arms. but the vast majority of Joe and Jane Citizen simply aren't capable, regardless of their level of training.

[FNH]

My post isn't about target accuracy, it's about training to react properly in quickly escalating situations (which, yes, many cops are bad at). Missing a shot isn't nearly as dangerous as not being able to process the information in your surroundings due to a spike in adrenaline. Seriously, the average person, trained shooter or not, can not and will not keep their shit together under pressure. This is due to physiological reactions that need to be specifically conditioned out. All military training does it, all professional forms of fighting do it, extreme athletes do it. Not all cops undergo the training, but definitely more than average random person.

That's why when jmc referenced tunnel vision I thought he was talking about this specifically - it is one of the innate physiological responses to a panic situation. Your brain focuses on the perceived threat and the periphery information that is constantly processed in the background takes a back seat to other functions. You literally get tunnel vision.

Tl;dr people are fucking scared unreliable meatbags who are far more likely to lose their shit and get hurt/killed before positively contributing to the situation. I don't want random scared unreliable meatbags to add more guns to a shitty situation. Leave it to slightly more reliable armored meatbags.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para...nervous_system

I think fight or flight is taught in elementary school.


I am interested to see how many more employers will start including active shooter training with their evac & shelter in-place training. I know a few started having to do it sadly.

[BerenTebogo]

Re: Mallister

Seriously. I would wager all of my money in the world that at least 75% of the people who post, in earnest, that the problem would be solved if only they could carry a gun are exactly the people who are going to be the first to lose their shit.

I have seen dudes who look like they could bench a horse get dropped and piss themselves from one punch. Guys who have CC licenses literally cry through an apology to someone 60lbs lighter than them because brass knucks don't fuck around. (If you cant keep someone 60lbs lighter than you from punching you, you aren't saving anyone from anything). Hero complex is probably the most ubiquitous delusion of grandeur.

[AidenCarby]

Don't be scared homie

[FNH]

go to work tomorrow and look at the people you work with, around, for, and deal with as customers/members/whatever. now imagine half of these sterling examples of humanity locked and loaded, and how they would react when faced with three people walking into your lobby and opening fire.

you know, i'm all for people that are trained and capable bearing arms. but the vast majority of Joe and Jane Citizen simply aren't capable, regardless of their level of training.

If this is in reply to me I don't think you read what I posted. My post isn't in support of ever heehaw going die hard on an active shooter.

[mallister]

If this is in reply to me I don't think you read what I posted. My post isn't in support of ever heehaw going die hard on an active shooter.

no no, i get you. we're in agreement. my post was more of a general response to the earlier question of would more CC citizens have helped with this. the tl;dr answer is it really depends on the person and most people aren't cut out for it.

[Indalecia]

go to work tomorrow and look at the people you work with, around, for, and deal with as customers/members/whatever. now imagine half of these sterling examples of humanity locked and loaded, and how they would react when faced with three people walking into your lobby and opening fire.

Not just civilian.

Minimal training in the military won't get you past that. I can think of a few (read: alot) of people from when I was in that I knew I wouldn't be able to count on if shit went down. That realization was 80% of the determining factor of my liberty buddies.

[Churchill]

Re: Mallister

Seriously. I would wager all of my money in the world that at least 75% of the people who post, in earnest, that the problem would be solved if only they could carry a gun are exactly the people who are going to be the first to lose their shit.

I have seen dudes who look like they could bench a horse get dropped and piss themselves from one punch. Guys who have CC licenses literally cry through an apology to someone 60lbs lighter than them because brass knucks don't fuck around. (If you cant keep someone 60lbs lighter than you from punching you, you aren't saving anyone from anything). Hero complex is probably the most ubiquitous delusion of grandeur.

We used to laugh because we'd flip through a magazine and there would be a 2 page spread of 'badasses', that is, guys dressed in some way with some filters, facial hair, whatever, that invokes the term.

Meanwhile, you have operators who generally dress in shorts and sandals, patagonia jackets cause it's cold and rainy, drive a prius, come from all walks of life and education levels, usually aren't yoked but are strong.

Unless you're talking about SEALs, they don't do fuck all so they just work out and write movie scripts so they're usually pretty big.