2013 America (and Friends!) Gun Violence Thread No Plows Allowed!

[Fondue]

Are you allowed to have facial hair?

[Mertron]

idk these guys look pretty trustworthy to me.



I mean at the very least I can hide behind the stay puft marshmallow man on the left

[Dimmauk]

I stand by my belief that guns are for pussies

[BaneTheBrawler]

I find it interesting that the tunnel-vision effect you guys describe is visible in vidya, too.

[Churchill]

I never really noticed a problem with it, there are pretty natural ways to keep your head in a 3d environment.

[Churchill]

At night, trapped at a compound wall getting shot at from the jungle with no vis. Can be pretty shitty though. That's when you just wait for the little birds or ac130 to make it all safe again

[Melena]

go to work tomorrow and look at the people you work with, around, for, and deal with as customers/members/whatever. now imagine half of these sterling examples of humanity locked and loaded, and how they would react when faced with three people walking into your lobby and opening fire.

you know, i'm all for people that are trained and capable bearing arms. but the vast majority of Joe and Jane Citizen simply aren't capable, regardless of their level of training.

Luckily, I work in a fucking hippy organization. My 2 times going to a shooting range, shooting everything from a bolt action sniper rifle, Thompson Machine Gun, AR 15 and a few different hand guns makes me the equivalent of a SWAT team member versus everyone else here.

[Churchill]

If you ignore physical fitness, everyone is capable.


Capable in the sense that they could be trained to fight the red chinese

[Kuya]

Very important that, the chinese.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

My post isn't about target accuracy, it's about training to react properly in quickly escalating situations (which, yes, many cops are bad at). Missing a shot isn't nearly as dangerous as not being able to process the information in your surroundings due to a spike in adrenaline. Seriously, the average person, trained shooter or not, can not and will not keep their shit together under pressure. This is due to physiological reactions that need to be specifically conditioned out. All military training does it, all professional forms of fighting do it, extreme athletes do it. Not all cops undergo the training, but definitely more than average random person.

Tl;dr people are fucking scared unreliable meatbags who are far more likely to lose their shit and get hurt/killed before positively contributing to the situation. I don't want random scared unreliable meatbags to add more guns to a shitty situation. Leave it to slightly more reliable armored meatbags.

I also don't want random scared unreliable meatbags with firearms but I respect their right to constitutional choice over a statist nanny system.

The rest I can't address civilly and/or in layman's terms.

[BerenTebogo]

Unenthused jacking off hand motion.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Lackadaisical hammering motion.

[djzombie]

enthusiastic ass fisting motion.

i am not sure what we're doing but it made me laugh.

[Aksannyi]

Well now it's a party.

[Xantavia]

In all seriousness though do you think these active shooters would have lasted so long if more people in the building were armed and trained to shoot? Or do you think it would just lead to more innocent bystanders being shot as people without any combat experience fail to hit their actual targets due to the stress of the situation?

I am not trying to troll this topic, I really want to hear if people think that your every day civilian open carrying is a deterrent or a detriment in this type of situation. Shooting at paper targets is very different than shooting at a person, and a person shooting back at that. Someone with no type of active combat experience is likely to either freeze up or not be very accurate returning fire. Do you think its enough to shoot back and not hit anything? Is that a deterrent in itself? Or is it just going to escalate the situation to even more violent levels. I think these people are just out to kill as many as possible so at this point I don't feel like there can be any further escalation.

Wasn't in the US, but I think it can paint a picture of what goes on when people panic.
Terrorism Drill Kills 1

Instead, students and staff at the school frantically tried to escape. They waded through the neighboring Mbagathi River, climbed out of windows and hovered over perches on the side of the university building, looking for a way out. Esther Kindambi, a 33-year-old employee, jumped from the third floor and died.

Students thought the drill was real and panicked. Injuries and a fatality were a result of trying to get away. I can only imagine the carnage if people were armed.

[jmc]

I'll try to make this less of a rambling rant, but its pretty hard lol

I don't mind having more CCW holders in society, it will serve as more of a deterrent that actual stopping power.

With that said though, I believe having more CCW holders in response to active shooters has significant pros and cons with the cons outweighing the pros.

If you have a CCW and are involved in a situation like the one that happened yesterday, shelter in a secured room and defend yourself with your firearm.

If you have a CCW and are involved in a situation like the one that happened yesterday, but decided to seek out the shooter to "stop him" then you are a idiot and a damn fool. Even if you do seek out and engage the shooter, you will more than likely be shot by police.

[jmc]

Nope

[Churchill]

And that's exactly what the vets at that school in oregon did. As much shit as the military gets for killing civilian muj, our ROE was super stringent and a lot of times the regular army would need to sit there and actually be shot at by guys setting up defensive positions lol. Cops would just shoot you in the chaos because fuck it.

[jmc]

Active shooter training has changed in the past few years for law enforcement.

We are no longer trying to rescue people or contain the situation.

We go in to eliminate the threat, and that's it. So for normal patrol officers in this situation, they see a firearm and they are probably going to shoot first. SWAT of course will have a little more self control.

[Churchill]

Right, my comment is mostly aimed at point that out in comparison to 18 year old kids with self-restraint enough not to just kill muj because they're brown.

There are military parallels to this as well. In a unit like the SEALs, you have 18 year olds (19-20 or so at the youngest by the time they're done with their pipeline) but the difference between them and a regular Marine/Army Infantry unit is that those 19-20 year olds don't really have a supervisor. If they make a team, they're on a team, and they're able to make their own calls on a situation and respond to it however they want. In this example, they'd be similar to police officers who respond first to a scene. They have all the authority in the world to make their own calls. Routinely these guys do cowboy shit that I and everyone I know found completely unacceptable.

In a regular line unit, you have a defined chain of command. That 18 year old isn't allowed to do shit without asking permission. Depending on the unit, the FTL can make those calls, or the SQL, but sometimes it has to go all the way up to the PSG/PL or the CO/GFC. That supervision and leadership is always present though, mistakes and fuckups are severely punished and eventually you either become someone capable of making the right calls or you don't become a leader.

There was a guy who was charged with basically murdering Afghans, SSG Gibbs. He was actually in my unit when I was in the regular Army before he left to 2ID and I left to go somewhere else. Decent guy, bit of a psychopath, but not uncommon (in fact, sociopath is where most SOF members test when given psychiatric evaluations). The reason he and his squad members were charged with murder was because he was basically running patrols without supervision in Arghandab. Arghandab is a pretty shitty area, it's actually the jungle area I was describing in a different post where Church almost got axed. Lots of IEDs, lots of Taliban activity. His squad was just going around shooting people, bringing dummy weapons on patrol, all sorts of shit. 100% this happened because he was running a patrol with 8 guys with him as the sole authority. In a Platoon sized setting, with 3 other SQL and a PSG/PL, shit would have never happened because the consequences of doing so would have kept him in line.