2013 America (and Friends!) Gun Violence Thread No Plows Allowed!

[Niiro]

...........where the fuck do people think "illegal guns" come from?

Illegal gun manufacturers? The local black market Wal-Mart?

[Tyrath]

...........where the fuck do people think "illegal guns" come from?

Illegal gun manufacturers? The local black market Wal-Mart?

I'm fucking dead lol

[zoobernut]

...........where the fuck do people think "illegal guns" come from?

Illegal gun manufacturers? The local black market Wal-Mart?

You got me this makes sense when I go back and think about the idea of getting rid of 90% of all guns including untraceable illegally obtained ones. I wasn't thinking about it that way.

[Greatguardian]

Note sure if sarcasm. All illegally obtained guns were once legally obtained guns that were then sold to someone they were not supposed to be sold to. Eliminate the legally obtained guns and you eliminate the source of the illegally obtained guns.

[Melena]

Note sure if sarcasm. All illegally obtained guns were once legally obtained guns that were then sold to someone they were not supposed to be sold to. Eliminate the legally obtained guns and you eliminate the source of the illegally obtained guns.

I'm sure there's a lot of illegal weapons that were imported illegally, and not just stolen/sold to people illegally. If it was that black and white, would be an easy fix.

[zoobernut]

Note sure if sarcasm. All illegally obtained guns were once legally obtained guns that were then sold to someone they were not supposed to be sold to. Eliminate the legally obtained guns and you eliminate the source of the illegally obtained guns.

Yeah that is just not true. As Melena said there are smuggled/stolen guns. Not only that but how big is the back stock of existing "illegal" guns in this country? How hard would it be to get rid of those in addition to the known legal guns?

[Roranora]

Guardian has a good article on how deep our gun control issue really is.

Such a tiny percentage of gun deaths are from mass shootings, fewer than 1% a year about.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-gun-violence

The firearm death rate has hovered at about 10.4 per 100,000 since 1999, according to the CDC.
In absolute terms, around 33,500 lives are lost each year. That's roughly one every 15 minutes – about the same number of people as are killed on America's roads.

About 4% of deaths are categorised by the CDC as being 'unintentional', the result of 'legal intervention' (i.e. police acting in the line of duty), or of undetermined causes.

Almost two-thirds of deaths – a proportion that has risen since 1999 – are suicides.

The rest – about 11,000 a year – are homicides.

Mass shootings, defined by the Mother Jones mass shootings database as 'seemingly indiscriminate rampages in public places' in which three or more victims were killed, account for the tiny sliver of yellow at the bottom of the chart.

[Niiro]

I do not believe for a second that any significant amount of guns are smuggled into the US.

That's like smuggling weed into Mexico.

[archibaldcrane]

Obviously stolen guns are an issue, but I don't think there is a major issue with guns being smuggled INTO the United States. Mexico has problems with guns being smuggled FROM the US into there, but I'd be very surprised if even 5% of the guns in America were illegally imported. It's just too easy to legally purchase guns (straw purchases or whatever) to go through the effort to smuggle them in.

edit: goddamnit niiro

[zoobernut]

I do not believe for a second that any significant amount of guns are smuggled into the US.

That's like smuggling weed into Mexico.

Yeah I agree. Also I bet that number would go up significantly if we did eliminate a decent amount of guns in this country.

What about the restriction on ammo capacity and loading capabilities? What if clips and magazines were no longer allowed. Only guns that could be loaded one round at a time?

[Ksandra]

The problem with "banning guns" relating to gangs is there are way too many in circulation.

I don't even want to think the level of nazi-like laws we would need in order to actually remove 90% of our guns in a quick amount of time.

Even if you did a slow process of something like "donate your gun and get $1000" to try and remove them from circulation, you are going to find gang members holding onto a shitton of them no matter what.

Actually you can. Getting kids out of gangs alone would be a huge reduction in gun violence

Yes, I'm not denying that. Please read. Getting kids out of gangs would significantly reduce gang violence. Getting kids out of gangs would not significantly reduce mass shootings.

Nor am I saying we shouldn't care about gangs.

What I am saying is that the current legislation towards guns are more focused on reducing mass shootings, and not focused on reducing gang culture. Gun legislation is going to do little regarding gangs.


And are you under the assumptions schools don't already try to get kids out of gangs? Do you think there's some magic button on the back of their necks we can just switch off?

We have several programs at our schools for gang prevention. Many are in gangs and still go to school (aka dropping out has often little to do with it, they don't drop out of public school until they are forced to go to juvenile hall.) And our school is not unique in this matter. I actually think there's not much else schools can do.

You must keep in mind that when the family gets wrapped up in gangs, it's very very hard to keep the kids out. Parents owe debts, the gangs want young people who are willing to take risks. It's a very vicious cycle where it's the only thing the family knows.

Personally, things like the minimum wage raise is going to do a million times more to help reduce gangs than adding more school programs. Because there won't be as much pull to be in it. If you can work at McD's and make the same amount you'd get being a newbie in a gang, you're less likely to join the gang.

If your family is able to put food on your table a lot easier, you will be a lot less likely to take desperate actions.




Now, there can be some overlap, as with anything, regarding laws with these two, but really should be looked at separately. Law that ends up helping both? Great! But should not be required in order for a law to be passed.

[Melena]

I worded that badly. I should have said that if all guns got outlawed, you would probably see a good sized uptick in gun smuggling into the US.

[Melena]

The problem with "banning guns" relating to gangs is there are way too many in circulation.

I don't even want to think the level of nazi-like laws we would need in order to actually remove 90% of our guns in a quick amount of time.

Even if you did a slow process of something like "donate your gun and get $1000" to try and remove them from circulation, you are going to find gang members holding onto a shitton of them no matter what.



Yes, I'm not denying that. Please read. Getting kids out of gangs would significantly reduce gang violence. Getting kids out of gangs would not significantly reduce mass shootings.

Nor am I saying we shouldn't care about gangs.

What I am saying is that the current legislation towards guns are more focused on reducing mass shootings, and not focused on reducing gang culture. Gun legislation is going to do little regarding gangs.


And are you under the assumptions schools don't already try to get kids out of gangs? Do you think there's some magic button on the back of their necks we can just switch off?

We have several programs at our schools for gang prevention. Many are in gangs and still go to school (aka dropping out has often little to do with it, they don't drop out of public school until they are forced to go to juvenile hall.) And our school is not unique in this matter. I actually think there's not much else schools can do.

You must keep in mind that when the family gets wrapped up in gangs, it's very very hard to keep the kids out. Parents owe debts, the gangs want young people who are willing to take risks. It's a very vicious cycle where it's the only thing the family knows.

Personally, things like the minimum wage raise is going to do a million times more to help reduce gangs than adding more school programs. Because there won't be as much pull to be in it. If you can work at McD's and make the same amount you'd get being a newbie in a gang, you're less likely to join the gang.

If your family is able to put food on your table a lot easier, you will be a lot less likely to take desperate actions.




Now, there can be some overlap, as with anything, regarding laws with these two, but really should be looked at separately. Law that ends up helping both? Great! But should not be required in order for a law to be passed.

So what would you consider a mass shooting then, how many people need to die for it to constitute a mass shooting? Does the gang banger shooting into a group of people who are partying and only kill 1-3 not count? Mass shootings as someone already just posted are the smallest % of gun related deaths in the US.

Yes, I know schools do what they can, but when you have schools that don't perform as well due to where they are located, high gang %, high drop out % having funding cut, which further eliminates things like after school programs, you got more kids that are going to wind up in gangs and shit. So yes, making sure our schools are funded, getting rid of tenure so shit teachers can get canned and replaced by competent ones, which will have a huge impact on drop out #'s will actually help.

[Niiro]

Yeah I agree. Also I bet that number would go up significantly if we did eliminate a decent amount of guns in this country.

What about the restriction on ammo capacity and loading capabilities? What if clips and magazines were no longer allowed. Only guns that could be loaded one round at a time?

Er, like, half a page up:

Restricting all semi-automatic weapons always seemed like the best middle-ground solution on gun ownership tbh.

Not even restricting revolvers, it's hard to commit a mass shooting with 6 shots and a relatively long, cumbersome reload time (also harder to conceal). No such thing as extended magazines for a revolver and something tells me turning a bolt-action rifle into a semi-automatic isn't exactly a simple fix.

Meanwhile every practical civilian application for gun ownership is still available.

I mean it's legislative fan-fiction, but the point is that reasonable restrictions are a thing, we just don't wanna.

[Ksandra]

Mass shooting for the purposes of this conversation- non-gang related mass deaths.

Again I am NOT saying we shouldn't help reduce gang violence.

Tell me, Melena, since you seem hung up on that: WHY do you think legislation should ONLY focus on gangs?

Why should we not try and stop these shootings just because gangs do more shootings?

[Roranora]

Discussion centered around mass shootings misses the point. Not that many of you will read that article I posted..

Too much emphasis on mass shootings has a cost

America’s gun control debate continues to revolve around the exact circumstances of the shooting that is currently on the news. Is a new gun law worth it, or not? That depends on whether it might have prevented this particular shooting. While this is an understandable, human response, it is a terrible way to go about saving lives.

The shock and horror that follows mass shootings has led to an obsessive focus on the dangers of military-style rifles – even though rifles of any kind were used in less than 3% of gun murders in 2014, according to FBI data.

A tunnel focus on mass shootings has also fueled the public perception that mental illness is driving gun violence. But experts caution that even miraculously curing all schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depression in America might only lead to a 4% reduction in overall violence.

A debate conducted in the aftermath of mass shootings has also prompted a huge public investment in guarding and fortifying public schools against shootings, even though the typical school can expect to see a student homicide only once every 6,000 years, according to safety expert Dewey Cornell.

Since the 1999 school shooting at Columbine high school in Colorado, the justice department has invested nearly $1bn to help put police officers in schools, though Cornell notes there is still little evidence that school security measures reduce crime.

[archibaldcrane]

The debate is over things that can change without a constitutional amendment. That's why it's always focused on these fringe issues that will have small effects at best - like terrorist watch lists, assault weapons bans, universal background checks, mental health bans, etc.

That being said, "curing major depression" may not help much with the gun murder rate, but it sure as fuck would help with the gun suicide rate.

[Roranora]

And school rent-a-cops


Edit: We've got into suicide a bit before, and I think it's a bit of a miscategorization of depression to assume if they weren't depressed, they wouldn't have committed suicide. Surely in some cases but not all. Gun availability is a key problem; if a gun is available and a support system isn't, we'll probably have a corpse. A moment of helplessness is not always ongoing depression. And we're not about to melt 90m guns at a cost of a billion dollars, so this availability isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

In make-believeland, we'll heavily restrict handguns to LEOs, select security, military, and maybe some citizens that pass an extensive competence and aptitude exam. Additionally we'll buy back guns at an extremely lucrative rate and start a moratorium on gun manufacture, (at least until we can figure out what is going on) eliminating jobs and defeating an invincible lobbying foe.

[Melena]

Mass shooting for the purposes of this conversation- non-gang related mass deaths.

Again I am NOT saying we shouldn't help reduce gang violence.

Tell me, Melena, since you seem hung up on that: WHY do you think legislation should ONLY focus on gangs?

Why should we not try and stop these shootings just because gangs do more shootings?

I never said legislation should focus 100% on gangs. Legislation though should focus on the greater ill and work it's way down. According to Mother Jones, there has been 126 mass shootings in which 4 or more people have died, with an average of 7, with a total of 869 victims. In 2013, 3,428 people died from a gun related incident. Now tell me which is the bigger problem? A mass shooting, or the every day gun violence? Oakland California has had 27 homicides so far this year, on pace to outdo the mass shooting in Orlando.

Look, I get it, people love to look at big numbers and cry about that problem, but completely ignore the bigger problem because it doesn't show the flashy #'s. What generates more buzz? 49 people in a nightclub in orlando, or let's use Chicago as an example, the 307 people killed in Chicago so far this year? http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/homicides

Half the reason nothing ever gets done is due to people making knee jerk reactions whenever something big happens. Look at airports after 9-11. TSA still has an abysmal catch rate, and ironically the best polling airports are the ones who are allowed to privatize it's security. Billions have been spent on body scanners, among many other things due to a knee jerk reaction that really hasn't made flying any safer then what it was pre 9-11. If you want to cut down on shootings, you need to change the entire gun culture. Part of the way to change that is to actually be truthful of what guns are. The fact people like to cry about assault rifles, yet no one can even define what constitutes an assault rifle. Saying semi automatic doesn't mean anything as pretty much every gun, including all handguns which by the way contribute more to gun related deaths then rifles, are semi automatic.

I got more to say but i'm in a rush to get out of work, i'll post more later.

[Niiro]

The reason why the calls for gun control come after massacres is because any other time the efforts are just completely ignored thanks to the gun lobby and the NRA.

It's the only time people might actually be willing to admit there's a problem and do something to solve it, any other time it's just a whole lotta "lol, nope."