2013 America (and Friends!) Gun Violence Thread No Plows Allowed!

[Xno Kappa]

Yeah, anyone who thinks that video justifies shooting the guy isn't using their brain, or is a happy little coward that bows down to authority figures as if they're inerrant.

If you want more reasoning, consider the video linked in the other thread: http://abcnews.go.com/US/dash-cam-vi...ry?id=22660928

They had the dashcam footage from one car where the drivers actions were completely obscured by other cops. The prosecutors were prepared to put this guy away for years. Then another camera with a better angle reveals that the driver wasn't doing shit. Bottom line - if you don't have the whole story, then jumping to a conclusion one way or the other is retarded. If you think shooting someone in self defense is justified because the person is simply holding a weapon, then you're a psychopath. If you think cops are allowed to shoot people who don't comply with orders within 5 seconds, then you're a psychopath.

Aren't you the same dude who claimed those guys that raped the teenage drunk chick were innocent despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that lead to a guilty verdict? On top of that, the same guy who claimed he was framed and setup by the police? Posts from you lead me to believe maybe you're the psychopathic anarchist in this conversation.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

Next Blubba will claim that BR kid didn't deserve to get shot either.

[jmc]

Really really wrong topic hahaha *edit*

[Suvhater]

cop zimmermans unarmed man

[Nephlite]

Only thing I can give Blub in this instance is he's trying to look at it from both sides. I agree, don't pass judgement till you hear/see both sides of the story and he brings up interesting points.

Of course, I'm biased so I would have shot him. We don't have Tasers in our department either, and pepper spray on anyone with a weapon is a no-no because of the uncontrollable swinging factor. Plus, you get affected as well and if you can't see the hands that are concealing blades, you can't stop them. A Taser would have been perfect in this situation but again, the body tends to lock up when you hit someone with a Taser so it doesn't necessarily disarm the attacker and he still has an opportunity to stab himself/you with the weapon.

Niiro also brings up a good point. Backing out and waiting for others to get there is a good (no brain) tactic. Not sure why he didn't in this instance. Once you step in the frame, you're committed. Maybe he was thinking he could talk the guy down? Maybe he was trying to play hero and the guy called him on his bluff and started up the green mile?

As police get more and more militarized, quick tactics like this are becoming commonplace methods to minimize the loss of life. Take Columbine for instance where more lives were lost waiting for SWAT to come on scene rather than some of the cops forming small entry teams and making entry; could have saved more lives neutralizing the shooters in that instance. That's how police tactics are nowadays. Academies and advanced training simulators are putting cops in to situations where they're almost required to go in and not wait for SWAT or ERT to try to neutralize the shooter before it gets worse.

We did the same thing with the Navy Yard a few months ago and there were MULTIPLE ERT/SWAT teams on scene and most of us just locked up and grabbed 3-4 people and started sweeping. We all knew what was at stake and we knew the danger of doing it. We just didn't want to go through more mass casualty situations and wanted to put a stop to it.

cop zimmermans unarmed man

I like your title, however, Zimmerman wasn't a cop and if you start beating a cop while he's on the ground, you're going to get shot. FLETC Use of Force states that attacking an officer while they're on the ground is a Deadly Force incident and the cop can use Deadly Force against you.

This is a pretty crazy video though. Not sure where this went wrong. Backstory is the guy (firefighter and his wedding night no less) was drunk and starting fights with people. Cop stops him, scuffle ensues and the two morons with the cell phone start recording right up till the subject turns the tables then they freak out. Cop shot him while on his back.

[Moss]

I can't speak for everyone but I'm not interested in whether or not it was a "clean shoot" or whatever, I fully understand that the cop had sufficient cause to shoot.

The issue I have with it was that it wasn't necessary, there were other ways he could have dealt with the situation that wouldn't have required him to gun the guy down.

Like I said before, why couldn't the officer simply back out of the house? We see he's standing in the doorway in the video, we hear him talking to other officers on the scene, he was hardly in a vulnerable position to necessitate the use of deadly force.

Back off, get support from the other officers, talk him down, mace him, de-escalate the situation.

In my mind he had passed the point of no return. Once he was inside the house and close to the suspect with the knife, he was in no position to back out of the house and de-escalate. Would you take your eye and gun off of a dude with a knife? Would you risk stumbling as you try to navigate your way backpedaling out of a house?

[kuronosan]

cop zimmermans unarmed man

That dude was a serious fucking moron. Everyone was shouting at him to not hit the cop.

[Suvhater]

yea he was allegedly drunk on his wedding night, cops was trying to contact him in regard to a taxi driver he assaulted. Cop was off duty at the time, on the way home in uniform.

Title involving zimmerman was a long shot, but both shot a man while claiming to be losing consciousness from head on concrete. I agree with the good shoot call.

I especially like the part where the cop is asking for help and the two recording just derp.

[Blubbartron]

Otherwise this is some mighty fine autism sir. He was justified in his actions, you don't come at a cop with a knife. Go on, head out tonight and pick up a knife and start walking at a cop while brandishing it while saying "You have no right to shoot me!"

There's a very big difference between walking towards someone while holding a knife/pointing it at them, and walking towards someone while holding a knife to your own throat/chest. Not to mention this was in the guy's own house. Context matters; don't be obtuse.

Aren't you the same dude who claimed those guys that raped the teenage drunk chick were innocent despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that lead to a guilty verdict? On top of that, the same guy who claimed he was framed and setup by the police? Posts from you lead me to believe maybe you're the psychopathic anarchist in this conversation.

I still haven't personally seen the evidence that indicates they had sex with her while she was unconscious. I disagree with the premise that intoxication renders someone incapable of desiring or agreeing to have sex. Intoxication impairs the ability to think through the consequences of decisions, but they're still making decisions. I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to framing/setup by police. I did have a false confession coerced from me under duress as a child, but the police weren't involved there. I'll be the first to admit that it was a turning point where I saw that authority should not be trusted simply for being authority. Actions and behavior matter, not status. I do judge people in authority more harshly, because it's part of the societal contract - we give people in authority power over others under the presumption that the power won't be abused or go to their heads. They need judged more harshly to keep them in check. People seem to have forgotten their obligation to judge around these parts.

cop zimmermans unarmed man

This is an obviously clean shoot. It's unfortunate that the bystanders filmed instead of stepping in, but that's a catch-22 - if you step into a fight between a uniformed officer and a civilian, you risk getting shot/arrested by any backup that might be on the way. Not to mention the officer could mistakenly think you're helping the civilian and not him, causing him to go to his gun quicker.

I like your title, however, Zimmerman wasn't a cop and if you start beating a cop while he's on the ground, you're going to get shot. FLETC Use of Force states that attacking an officer while they're on the ground is a Deadly Force incident and the cop can use Deadly Force against you.

I think there's an inherent problem in saying that cops are free to shoot civilians who punch them while they're on the ground but then turn around and have it be perfectly ok to punch/kick/beat people being arrested into submission if they're not 100% cooperative. In my mind, cops and civilians are on equal grounds when it comes to the right to self-defense. If I had a gun, and a cop was abusing his authority by mercilessly beating me for not complying with an unlawful order (or being black, or whatever), I would feel completely justified in shooting him dead to protect myself. Unfortunately, very few people agree with that mentality, because they put authority figures far above us lowly plebs.

[kuronosan]

I'm actually in partial agreement with Blub here. I have to emphasize PARTIAL. I think the officer's use of force against the child was justified, but entirely unnecessary. He could have fired an extremity shot or two but he shot the kid four times.

Now, on the other end of that spectrum (where my wife and I disagree) the kid was clearly out of his mind and was warned several times. What was the cop supposed to do? Stand there and let himself get stabbed? Run out of the house screaming that there's a psycho with a knife?

It's easy for the mother or whoever that was to scream at the officer for shooting the guy, but what if the cop had not shot him and he runs outside of the house and starts stabbing everyone before being gunned down by the other officers?

Could you make that call?

[Niiro]

I'm actually in partial agreement with Blub here. I have to emphasize PARTIAL. I think the officer's use of force against the child was justified, but entirely unnecessary. He could have fired an extremity shot or two but he shot the kid four times.

This always comes up and it always needs to be repeated:

Police officers do not shoot to wound or maim, they are trained to shoot to kill and nothing else.

[Roranora]

thread delivering

that KC shoot is pretty crazy, nothing really wrong in anything there except mostly the dangers of alcohol. You think a firefighter is going to curb stomp a cop's head without being in a drunken stupor? He should've gotten high on his wedding night. *canofworms*

Bystanders bystanding was pretty bad; I'd like to at least think I'd put my knee in that guys' back and help the cop detain him.

[Blubbartron]

I'm actually in partial agreement with Blub here. I have to emphasize PARTIAL. I think the officer's use of force against the child was justified, but entirely unnecessary. He could have fired an extremity shot or two but he shot the kid four times.

Now, on the other end of that spectrum (where my wife and I disagree) the kid was clearly out of his mind and was warned several times. What was the cop supposed to do? Stand there and let himself get stabbed? Run out of the house screaming that there's a psycho with a knife?

It's easy for the mother or whoever that was to scream at the officer for shooting the guy, but what if the cop had not shot him and he runs outside of the house and starts stabbing everyone before being gunned down by the other officers?

Could you make that call?

You're presuming that the guy with the knife was threatening to injure the officer, as opposed to threatening to injure himself. We can't tell which it was from the video. For certain, if he was suicidal (suggested by the woman's voice in the video), pulling a gun on him escalated the situation. I don't have any particular qualms with suicide in general, but if you believe that people who are thinking about suicide need help, you don't help by pointing a gun at them.

That said, personally, I would hope if I was in that situation I would have the courage to risk getting stabbed before I decided to put an abrupt end to the situation. Using a knife to kill someone is actually very difficult in comparison to a gun. With a gun you can shoot through the rib cage fairly easily (or at least break off chunks of bone/bullet to be secondary missiles inflicting massive internal damage), but a knife needs the right angle to avoid getting stuck less than a quarter inch deep. This is especially true if he was using one of those giant kitchen knives. Arteries are hard to hit unless you know what you're doing or get lucky, and hitting anything other than an artery means you're almost definitely going to live, especially with backup so close. And all of this is ignoring the fact that knives are melee weapons and trying to stab someone is pretty fucking difficult if they're running away or on the other side of a door. Lots of ways to protect yourself from a knife attack that aren't feasible compared to guns.

[Mad Dog Ben Richards]

if you were in that situation no matter what you did, everyone else would be here Monday morning quarterbacking your choice just like you are doing. after hours or days to think about what should have been done and watching videos of it yeah that's real easy to do after the fact.

[Mad Dog Ben Richards]

and for that matter I've had a gun pulled on me by a cop before. smoking pot in the yankee stadium parking garage cause I didn't want to drive while high. so I got there then smoked. one cop said get out of the car. the other said don't move and had his gun in my face at the window of the car. I put my hands up and said should I get out or not move. conflicting instructions. they both said get out after that. you argue in court, not on the street with the arresting officer.

[Brill Weave]

From what I could see, the guy with the knife didn't seem aggressive.

It honestly shocks me how easily everyone here kowtows to authority.

And from what I could see and hear, the guy was warned repeatedly to drop the knife, yet refused to do so repeatedly. You're basing your entire stance on the fact that you feel like the guy wasn't aggressive. Yet you've repeatedly admitted that you can't see what the guy is doing because it's obscured. This isn't kowtowing to authority. It's called being a rational thinking human being. You're trying so hard to find something, anything that you can use to say OMG THAT COP MURDERED THAT MAN IN COLD BLOOD. But in doing that you're basically ignoring everything that you can see.

To be blunt, your stance is fuck all retarded. Claiming someone doesn't look aggressive based on a completely obscured view of the arm that is holding the weapon is about as tin foil hat as you can get. Homey, you're approaching Plow levels here.

[Xajii]

and for that matter I've had a gun pulled on me by a cop before. smoking pot in the yankee stadium parking garage cause I didn't want to drive while high. so I got there then smoked. one cop said get out of the car. the other said don't move and had his gun in my face at the window of the car. I put my hands up and said should I get out or not move. conflicting instructions. they both said get out after that. you argue in court, not on the street with the arresting officer.

wow i'm just imagining if you were a little bit stupider and you followed the "get out" order and not the "don't move" order you could have potentially been shot

life is weird huh

[kuronosan]

thread delivering

that KC shoot is pretty crazy, nothing really wrong in anything there except mostly the dangers of alcohol. You think a firefighter is going to curb stomp a cop's head without being in a drunken stupor? He should've gotten high on his wedding night. *canofworms*

Bystanders bystanding was pretty bad; I'd like to at least think I'd put my knee in that guys' back and help the cop detain him.

To be honest that's the attitude here. Stand around and do jack shit when someone is in trouble. You have to go to the outer parts to really see nicer people.

not aggressive

Dude, he was coming towards the cop holding a knife in an outward position. If someone was walking creepily toward me like that even though I told them to stop and I was armed and warned them that I would shoot, I would fucking shoot them too. It's not that I wanted to kill or couldn't have run, it's that I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if he had gone out and started stabbing people.

The cop made a difficult call, and while it wasn't the right one to make in the situation it was a good call.

[Blubbartron]

Dude, he was coming towards the cop holding a knife in an outward position. If someone was walking creepily toward me like that even though I told them to stop and I was armed and warned them that I would shoot, I would fucking shoot them too. It's not that I wanted to kill or couldn't have run, it's that I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if he had gone out and started stabbing people.

The cop made a difficult call, and while it wasn't the right one to make in the situation it was a good call.

Can you show me a frame in the video where you can plainly see the knife is pointed at the officer? Are you sure you're not just assuming that to be the case because it would immediately justify the cop's action?

[AidenCarby]

Doesn't matter cop told him multiple times to knock it off, have a weapon and are advancing? Expect to get clapped.