FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn Opening Movie Now Live! (01/07/2013)

[Grey Jorildyn]

All this talk of elitist/world first/serve first/etc is making me hate the me of 10 years ago lol

It's a fucking video game. Unless you're getting paid to do it, who gives a shit (and even then who gives a shit). You're in too deep (or just too young and naive) if that's your priority in life imo.

[Lucavi]

I was just about to say; where was all this 10 years ago when HNM and Salvage was the only thing that mattered?

[Alkar]

I didn't mean FFXIV bosses were supposed to be killed on first try (even though all the bosses except King Moogle probably shouldn't take more than a few tries), I'm saying they were easy enough not to care who killed them first. Like Helion in WoW. It's cute you 2 want to defend it.

Yet SE published articles when someone cleared Ifrit and Garuda, go figure.

[Rakisho]

People wiped to lvl 25 Ifrit on first try because they dint kill nails and it still did 9,999. Rakisho is talking out of his ass

Nah I'm just a good player. Wasen't there a debate in another thread a few weeks ago, and pretty much everyone agreed FFXIV endgame difficulty was a joke? We're seriously going to have that one again?

Yet SE published articles when someone cleared Ifrit and Garuda, go figure.

How is that relevant to anything? At best publishing that is just a sad attempt at marketing/validating the endgame.

[Coyohma]

Early clears are primarily people who have the time directly after a launch to play the game.

All other factors included, world first is about free time more than anything else.

But when you clear it first, and you then clear it fastest (or whatever other way the fight allows you to display efficiency or ability), it should leave little doubt as to who has best mastered the content.

There are two parts - kill it first, and then kill it best.

[Foxer]

If it's about the post and not the pic, maybe you can explain then. Not sure if I missunderstand it, but if I don't, it's incredibly stupid. If we want to catch up they should wait with the level cap increase as long as possible, so the new can level the jobs, get the gear. Not speed it up so we'll hit there with just a few 50s. You don't want new shit to potentially have to catch up to too.

I played TERA too, but his post still seems wrong.

You're quite mistaken if you think I said raise the level cap immediately. lol

Couple to a few months is WAY more than enough time for even the non-factor casuals to hit cap and start with gear.

Like I said, I don't think keeping the cap at 50, considering we all know for a fact that it's going way past that, for such a long time, is a great idea.

[Falisa]

Pretty sure FFXI universally no one gave a fuck about who killed what first, unless it was AV. My linkshell got the first Ixion... No one gave a fuck, not even my own linkshell. Pretty sure that mentality would carry over to FFXIV.

[Rakisho]

You're quite mistaken if you think I said raise the level cap immediately. lol

Couple to a few months is WAY more than enough time for even the non-factor casuals to hit cap and start with gear.

Like I said, I don't think keeping the cap at 50, considering we all know for a fact that it's going way past that, for such a long time, is a great idea.

Aight. We're on the same page then. I'd say anything less than 2 months is too early. 3-4 months perfect.

[Foxer]

Pretty sure FFXI universally no one gave a fuck about who killed what first, unless it was AV. My linkshell got the first Ixion... No one gave a fuck, not even my own linkshell. Pretty sure that mentality would carry over to FFXIV.

Nothing mattered in FFXI until CoP. At least in Ragnarok, JPs never gave us server first bragging rights til then anyway.

[Churchill]

Maybe, BG's clearing on Darnus the fastest was great but I also know I had very little interest in attempting to do it and neither did my group. We had other priorities, our time dictated that we knock those out first. We beat Darnus comfortably in about 22m and that was the last weekend before they went down. We sold a Darnus win after that, finished a set of relics the day before and that was that.

[Elcura]

And if a group clears 1.0 content on their first try long before anyone else even gets close, that does not make them the best at that point in time?

I fail to see how that's not possible. The term "best" isn't permanent; its a dynamic thing; it exists at a single point in time and continues to exist until it is no longer true. I fail to see how the fastest clearing of new raid content does not equal the best guild at that point in time. If they weren't the best at that point in time, someone else would have beat them to it.

Their early clear takes into account either having the best gear (through effort), the most skilled players (to win the fight before others), the best strategy (to win the fight before others), or a combination of the three. When others clear content behind the first, they often take into account the methods of the first groups, then seek to improve on them where possible. That still doesn't take away the accomplishments of the first group, who were, at the time of clearing, the best.

Again, I fail to see how this can be incorrect, but please, educate me if you can.

Early clears are primarily people who have the time directly after a launch to play the game.

All other factors included, world first is about free time more than anything else.

This. Firsts are mostly a matter of time available, not skill. Nothing else matters when it comes to world firsts than time and persistence. Any group can figure a boss out given enough time and patience, the only difference between first kills and later kills are that the people who come later probably don't care as much. It's foolish to think it as an accurate indication of skill rather than dedication.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking down on firsts because they do require admirable qualities but they aren't a great indication of skill. At least the thing I think first is not that this group is skilled, but they have x amount of members with that much time and patience.

[Rakisho]

Any group can figure a boss out given enough time and patience, the only difference between first kills and later kills are that the people who come later probably don't care as much. It's foolish to think it as an accurate indication of skill rather than dedication.

No. Try again.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Why does he need to try again? I believe that statement is accurate.

[blackomega]

Damn haven't had any elitist squabbling since the game went down, this is refreshing.

[Elcura]

No. Try again.

Will you ever stop being dumb?

[Yoli]

No. Try again.

I'd simply rephrase it as "any average to above average group," and I think that would be fairly accurate.

A sizable minority of people on a server might simply not be able to manage it, but I'm pretty sure most could with time and patience (worth noting that not everyone has both, or even one, of course). I feel the problems a lot of people have in these situations are effectively becoming part of a group (ie: the "I don't want to start a party, but I'll join if you do" effect). That holds a lot of people back. But ultimately, I think the amount of actual skill (in the form of proper judgement making, or rapid reaction time, etc) distinguishing great players from above average player is a very small thing.

Bad players abound, sure. And some people don't want to learn how to play their jobs well for whatever reason. But most people who do want to play their job well are capable of doing so with a little bit of effort on their end. Capable of doing it well enough to, eventually, clear stuff. With time and patience.

[Waraji]

Will you ever stop being dumb?

No. Try again.

ftfy

[Rakisho]

I'd simply rephrase it as "any average to above average group," and I think that would be fairly accurate.

A sizable minority of people on a server might simply not be able to manage it, but I'm pretty sure most could with time and patience (worth noting that not everyone has both, or even one, of course). I feel the problems a lot of people have in these situations are effectively becoming part of a group (ie: the "I don't want to start a party, but I'll join if you do" effect). That holds a lot of people back. But ultimately, I think the amount of actual skill (in the form of proper judgement making, or rapid reaction time, etc) distinguishing great players from above average player is a very small thing.

Bad players abound, sure. And some people don't want to learn how to play their jobs well for whatever reason. But most people who do want to play their job well are capable of doing so with a little bit of effort on their end. Capable of doing it well enough to, eventually, clear stuff. With time and patience.

This is more accurate. I really question Elcuras experience in endgame in other games than FFXI and FFXIV, or maybe he is just that shortsighted/ignorant?
I honestly would not say it's a minority not being able to clear the last bosses in games that has a noteworthy endgame. Let's yet again use WoW as an example. Bosses there stay up for a long time. Especially the last tier is usually the relevant content for at least half a year, sometimes close to a year. A decently sized portion of the playerbase in that game is involved in raiding in 1 way or another, be it hardcore, casual, whatever. Lich King 25 Heroic was the relevant boss for close to a year, with several HUGE nerfs. Yet, less than 2% of the playerbase got to kill that boss. Sure, a lot of the players probably did not care, but there is also a FUCK TON OF PLAYERS/GUILDS WHO WERE JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH. The same can be said in vanilla Naxxramas where I believe it was 0,5% who saw Kel'Thuzad before TBC.

If you got a year to finish 1 instance, you can't blame that you don't have the time.

Fuck discussing this with people who's probably only played FFXI and FFXIV endgame is retarded.

[solracht]

But ultimately, I think the amount of actual skill (in the form of proper judgement making, or rapid reaction time, etc) distinguishing great players from above average player is a very small thing.

Maybe on encounters with simple mechanics like the FFXIV ones (where very few things are going on at the same time). Nope for a lot of Warcraft hardmodes, especially if you're doing them at the right gear levels.

I can't tell if you guys are talking about general MMOs or 1.0 specifically. I'm hoping the latter.

[Lucavi]

Yeah, I'm done with this one. Its pretty much coming down to:

Played XI at a decent-high level but played wow none-to-decent = world first isn't skilled.

Played XI at a decent-high level but played wow at a decent-high level = world first is skilled.

We've hit a roadblock, and the roadblock is called different games. None of it matters for 2.0 because the game isn't going to be the same type of game as either XI or WoW, but it was something to talk about for a few pages, so that's that, at least.