Growth of non-affiliated in America Slows

[kuronosan]

@Zealot creation doesn't have to mean religion. The universe as we know it was created from the big bang. My first post was about my happiness in our generations finally getting over religion.

And where did the big bang come from? Where did the matter come from to make the big bang? How did electricity, electrons, magnetism, and the cosmos as we know it form?

The ancient civilizations were well-versed in the sciences and didn't have these answers, and they still subscribed to a religion. Religion is not about belief in God and Jesus. You can replace them with any two "higher beings" and you'd still be religious. The native Americans worshipped the spirits of the land (as did Pagans) and that can be considered a religion.

If you're devout enough, anything can be a religion. Realistically, it's about faith in a higher power (though not necessarily a deity).

Now to my point: Believing that we know everything there is to know is as stupid as believing something exists because we do not have the capacity to measure or understand it. My supportive evidence? Talk to any physicist from 300-400 years ago. Tell them the world is round, there are distant planets capable of sustaining life, we have found subatomic particles called electrons, protons, and neutrons, and that all life in the universe flows its energy in a finite space that collapses every trillion years or so and see if they don't tell you how full of shit you are.

We progress as a species because we are developing an understanding of our surroundings. You know, sort of like how we progress as humans from child to an adult. Right now we're in those angst-y teenage years full of strife and misery.

I, for one, look forward to that day of adulthood when we can put aside the trivial shit and focus on life as it matters. This is coming from someone who was raised Catholic and used to believe every religious story.

Yes, I am spiritual. No, I don't subscribe to a higher power or authority anymore. The fact that the universe as we know it may have been created and must have started from something is not off the table for me. If you don't like it, go fuck yourself.

[Blubbartron]

Something to consider, Hatedregret - if the place where matter resides (call it the universe) has existed infinitely, there is no such thing as a "beginning." The only question is why is it there to begin with?

Sidebar question: is that proper nomenclature? If space can be thought of as a medium (like water), did the big bang provide that medium or was the medium already there? If it truly is a medium and we simply can't detect its particles (like how centuries ago people thought air was nothing), then the universe would be all of "space" and what's contained within it plus anything that's outside of space (potentially just a hell of a lot of nothingness, extending infinitely in all directions). Does anyone have any idea wtf I'm talking about?

[kuronosan]

Something to consider, Hatedregret - if the place where matter resides (call it the universe) has existed infinitely, there is no such thing as a "beginning." The only question is why is it there to begin with?

Sidebar question: is that proper nomenclature? If space can be thought of as a medium (like water), did the big bang provide that medium or was the medium already there? If it truly is a medium and we simply can't detect its particles (like how centuries ago people thought air was nothing), then the universe would be all of "space" and what's contained within it plus anything that's outside of space (potentially just a hell of a lot of nothingness, extending infinitely in all directions). Does anyone have any idea wtf I'm talking about?

I think I get the jist of what you're saying.

Basically you're asking if the fluid existed first before the glass containing it or if the fluid was created from the glass itself. If that's what you mean, I think you're saying the same thing that I am.

[Eurell]

There is always going to be that one question that will never be answered no matter how advanced we become.

This is the statement people are taking issue with, in case you couldn't tell.

[Hatedregret]

Chicken or the egg type of question. Egg, but from a different creature. The medium always being there still can't be answered that way though. We wouldn't know what formed it in the first place. I just can't sit with anything having always been.

Krauss likes to talk a lot about vacuum and creation. I have issues with that simply from an energy standpoint on a scale such as the universe as opposed to particles. That video I posted before does talk about this too by the way. Particles coming into being and then disappearing in the vacuum.

@Eurell I realize. They're using it as a generalization statement though and not how I used it. I said it referring one thing only. That one thing it holds true to. Whether people thing it's asinine to talk about an unanswerable question or not. I prefer to be humbled by it.

[Helm]

What?

[Salodin]

What?

TL;DR: Person asks "What came before (insert current origin theory here)?". Resident atheists give answer and link that doesn't answer the question. Person goes "that doesn't answer my question", resident atheists say "LOL UR PROBLEM (insert insult here)".

The real answer is "We don't know yet". You can have faith that science will eventually know the answer to what came before what we know now, but there is no proof that it ever will. Maybe one day we can get to the end and can say to ourselves "This is how it all started. Nothing came before this"; however, we have no idea when that'll happen, and I'm confident none of us will be around for it. So, believe in God if it makes you feel better or live life to the fullest if you think you only have one life to live, it really doesn't matter at this moment.

[Blubbartron]

I think the question will always be a philosophical one, simply because of the "first cause" argument. The question is why is there anything at all instead of nothing? Beats the fuck outta me.

[ronin sparthos]

My issue with religion still can't be answered by science. There is always going to be that one question that will never be answered no matter how advanced we become. Something from nothing. Big bang created the universe? Cool. Where did those particles originate? God is and always has been? Cool. What/who made him?

I'm always happy to hear that we as a culture are finally breaking free of religion. It's done zero good in the past and is used more as a political talking point nowadays than anything.

Religion has done zero good in the past? You're kidding right?

[hey]

What is the purpose of life?

That's an easy one: There is none.

[Blubbartron]

Religion has done zero good in the past? You're kidding right?

Qualified as recent past, he would be correct. It's been centuries since religion was necessary to keep an idiotic populace from raping and pillaging all willy-nilly. It's entirely possible there were small tribes that had managed to achieve some modicum of societal advancement without the need for an invisible, petty, father-figure that will punish you if you're bad, but that tribe would've been wiped out by the fanatics of the other religions. It simultaneously amuses me and makes me sad that we have the major religions we have today because of social evolutionary anthropology (religions that told followers to procreate like mad, convert as many people as possible, and kill everyone who denied their god were the most "fit").

edit: I'm aware he *didn't* qualify his statement, so feel free to tell him he's stupid for thinking religion was *never* useful. It did serve a purpose. Whether or not religion was necessary to achieve that goal is debatable, but it did achieve that goal.

[Callisto]

I used to classify myself as an atheist, before I became enlightened about our savior, Andrew W.K.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Religion has done zero good in the past? You're kidding right?

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Qualified as recent past, he would be correct. It's been centuries since religion was necessary to keep an idiotic populace from raping and pillaging all willy-nilly.

You're right, religion was just good at giving the idiotic populace a reason to rape and pillage anyone that didn't believe what they do.

[ronin sparthos]

Qualified as recent past, he would be correct. It's been centuries since religion was necessary to keep an idiotic populace from raping and pillaging all willy-nilly. It's entirely possible there were small tribes that had managed to achieve some modicum of societal advancement without the need for an invisible, petty, father-figure that will punish you if you're bad, but that tribe would've been wiped out by the fanatics of the other religions. It simultaneously amuses me and makes me sad that we have the major religions we have today because of social evolutionary anthropology (religions that told followers to procreate like mad, convert as many people as possible, and kill everyone who denied their god were the most "fit").

I'm not even talking about religion as a tool for controlling the masses, I'm talking about religion as a source of wonder, curiosity and inquiry that has fueled many of the most influential philosophers, scientists, social critics, anthropologists and sociologists in recorded history. Many of these same individuals had religious obligations and beliefs that would be called superstitious nonsense but that doesn't change the fact that in many of the cases it was religion that influenced them towards their contributions to humanity.

If we want to argue that religious dogma has been a limiting force that oppresses free inquiry and the pursuit of answers that's another issue entirely.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Many of these same individuals had religious obligations and beliefs that would be called superstitious nonsense but that doesn't change the fact that in many of the cases it was religion that influenced them towards their contributions to humanity.

This is complete bullshit, but I love that you deliver it as a fact with zero evidence. Makes complete sense given the topic.

[Qalbert]

hey man, some things you just gotta take on faith

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

[Blubbartron]

I'm not even talking about religion as a tool for controlling the masses, I'm talking about religion as a source of wonder, curiosity and inquiry that has fueled many of the most influential philosophers, scientists, social critics, anthropologists and sociologists in recorded history. Many of these same individuals had religious obligations and beliefs that would be called superstitious nonsense but that doesn't change the fact that in many of the cases it was religion that influenced them towards their contributions to humanity.

If we want to argue that religious dogma has been a limiting force that oppresses free inquiry and the pursuit of answers that's another issue entirely.

Yeah, you're pretty much way off base here. Religion provides answers, not questions. It is not a source of wonder. It is an inquisitive-mind-crushing menace, and has been since its inception. You can't search for knowledge/truth when you think you've already found it.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I can't tell if ronin is religious and defending his beliefs or if he just believes this open-minded act contributes to the larger conversation.