Worst FF main villain

[Eurell]

I really have to replay, because I totally remember him talking about being an ancient outside of flashbacks. I also remember him talking about flying the planet around though, so theres a good chance that I've just combined everything I know about him over 3-4 games/movies over the past 15 years and forget where I heard what.

[Raldo]

This is why we need a remake of FF7 translated by more than one guy, preferably not overworked and not underpaid.
Seriously the translations of FF games up until 10 were fucking terrible. 8 and 9 were passable I guess, but still kind of confusing at times. I think the translation is largely to blame for some of the confusion around 7 for NA/EU fans. (Also playing a remake would be a solid refresher for everyone XD)

Huh, I'd never heard that, but that makes sense. I never understood what was going on in FF7 half the time, and as such, I never grew attached to it and always thought the game sucked balls. Most of the people that know a lot about it have done some additional reading/researching beyond the game itself. I haven't been able to follow half of this discussion you guys are having on FF7; I had to actually go look up wtf a 'Cetra' was.

Nothing worthwhile to add to the topic, carry on.

[Eurell]

I found FF7 very easy to follow, and especially fun when you found the extra stuff like the cutscene of Zacks death in the basement in Nibelheim. I think the main issue is that its a 15 year old game at this point lol.

[Tyrath]

He was the only person to successfully merge with Jenova when the cells were injected in utero. The soldiers with Jenova cells injected into them got stronger but they weren't anything close to what Sephiroth was, they were humans with Jenova cells in them, not a human-Jenova hybrid (which was the point of Hojo's project).

Yeah, he merged better than the rest. So what? My point is at this point Jenova had no power of her own to exert over him. He was stronger and better than the rest because he was given the cell treatment before birth. Jenova still had no control over him. Like I said before, Jenova did not influence his mind.

How could you say that Sephiroth wasn't different from the rest? He was able to use the Jenova cells and exert power over them in others, could anyone else do that? If he was just a normal guy with Jenova cells stuck in him why was he able to travel the lifestream as he did? How did he manage to recreate his body at the N. Crater?

Of course he was different, but that was because like I said above, he gained stronger abilities from the rest because of his early cell treatment. That did not give him the power to use the Jenova cells and exert power over others. He gained that power by being submerged in the lifestream. There is no record of him being able to do so before Cloud kicked his ass in Nibelhiem. I never said he was normal. He was a human enhanced by Jenova cells much further than anyone had been before. He survived the lifestream probably in part due to the cells and was able to recreate his body thanks to them as well. But this was all of his own powers enhanced by the cells, not being controlled by Jenova cells.

As far the ancient stuff, he would have to be fucking retarded to still think he was a Cetra. After falling into the lifestream he gains all the knowledge inside, why would he be driven to (again) do what Jenova had done and bring the planet to near-death so he can absorb it's power? He never makes any claim of being an ancient after Nibleheim and there's no reason to think he still though he was one, he would have had to gloss over quite a bit of information during his time in the lifestream to not know the difference.

He never makes a claim to be an ancient again so theres no reason to think he still thinks so? Thats stupid. Until he clarifies his position otherwise, it makes perfect sense to think that his way of thinking is the SAME as before. And I already addressed this. What he wanted to do in FF7 is NOT the same as what jenova wanted to do. Jenova destroyed planets and moved on. Sephiroth wanted to be a god and control the planet. That is different. In AC the writers changed his plan to follow Jenova's because his Meteor plan had already failed.

[Niiro]

He was a human-Jenova hybrid, he could do things no one else could do because of that.

You can say that he was only able to control the Jenova cells in other because of what he learned in the lifestream, that's most likely true but it's also kind of pointless. He was able to survive (and therefore learn/rebuild/manipulate/etc) in the lifestream because of his unique nature as a human/Jenova hybrid, he wasn't just a human with Jenova cells in him otherwise any soldier would have been able to do that.

Here, I'll provide a visual aid.

Normal person injected with Jenova cells after taking a dip in the lifestream:



Sephiroth after taking a dip in the lifestream:



There's a reason why he was considered a "success" by Hojo while so many others weren't, it wasn't just because he was stronger (injecting Jenova cells could do that to anyone). The original intent was to make a human-Cetra hybrid (since they thought Jenova was a Cetra) not to make super soldiers, Seph was a success because he was the only successful hybridization of a human and Jenova, not because he was strong.

[Tyrath]

And I'm saying he was not a hybrid. He simply had a higher synchronization and stronger abilities because he was injected with Jenova cells while in the womb. He was a "success" because Hojo figured out that the best time to inject with the cells was before birth. So he was a stronger version of the rest of the soldiers, nothing more.

[Charismatic]

And I'm saying he was not a hybrid. He simply had a higher synchronization and stronger abilities because he was injected with Jenova cells while in the womb. He was a "success" because Hojo figured out that the best time to inject with the cells was before birth. So he was a stronger version of the rest of the soldiers, nothing more.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Jenova_Project

The Jenova Project, also known as Ancients Project, refers to a series of experiments performed by the Shinra Electric Power Company in Final Fantasy VII. Shinra conducted the experiments with the ultimate goal to create a human hybrid with the alien creature Jenova, whom Shinra had mistakenly believed to be an Ancient.

...and Sephiroth was considered a success.

[Tyrath]

Then perhaps I'm wrong on that point.

But it does not prove that a hybrid of the two means that the Jenova cells are in control or that Jenova and Sephiroth become one entity like Niiro is claiming. From what I'm reading on that page it just seems like the hybrids who were a result of Project S and G were simply soldiers who had powers because they could control their Jenova cells. Later soldiers were not exposed in the same manner or to the same degree so they only had enhanced abilities.

[Niiro]

The idea that Jenova's presence had some effect over Seph's physiology was just an assumption considering he was a true hybrid and added to that the Jenova cells carry an independent will of their own. It just made sense to me as another factor contributing to his behavior, I didn't think Jenova manipulated him to any direct action but I figured her presence would have had some kind of effect.

As far as who's controlling whom, once he falls into the lifestream and everything starts happening I just see it as an arbitrary distinction. On the surface they're in collusion, anything beyond that is largely interpretive, their goals are the same and there's never any kind of "quarrel" between them (tho it's kind of hard to have a disagreement with a virus lacking any discernible conscious mind). I generally just think of them as a single entity for all intents and purposes with Seph retaining his individuality because he is a hybrid of the species and therefore not subject to Jenova's direct control.

Jenova runs with it because without him she would have remained in her beaker at the reactor/Shinra HQ building being too weak to act on her own and when Seph does recover her their goals are essentially the same (kill planet, absorb life energy, profit).

[Tyrath]

Fair enough. At that point I can just agree to disagree seeing as we seem to only be disagreeing on things the game left pretty vague. I will admit I was wrong about what exactly Sephiroth was after the experiments upon further reading.

[miokomioko]

Wasn't pretty much every encounter with "Sephiroth" post-Nibelheim just a Jenova-controlled clone anyways (as his real body was dormant in Northern Crater since falling into the Lifestream)?

As stated in Professor Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory, once Jenova's cells have been separated from the main body they will eventually reunite into one again. If they are inside a host body they can influence its mind and body to join the Reunion — sometimes so extremely the host organism is killed.

[samalis]

Wasn't pretty much every encounter with "Sephiroth" post-Nibelheim just a Jenova-controlled clone anyways (as his real body was dormant in Northern Crater since falling into the Lifestream)?

Apparently Sephiroth was in full control of the Jenova clones while in the crater.

[Charismatic]

Wasn't pretty much every encounter with "Sephiroth" post-Nibelheim just a Jenova-controlled clone anyways (as his real body was dormant in Northern Crater since falling into the Lifestream)?

Yes.
Why is this relevant though?

[miokomioko]

Why would Sephiroth incite the reunion (the reassembling of Jenova's parts)? Unless his body was merely a vessel for Jenova, post-Lifestream, I don't think he would have much of an actual purpose to draw all the clones to himself for his revenge on Cetra's traitors. Perhaps I'm just stumbling upon these things... was the Reunion only used to draw back all the clones once one of them obtained the Black Materia? If that's the case, I'd say Sephiroth was in control and actually using Jenova to get what he wanted.

[Niiro]

Yea they're all "apparitions" of some kind made to look like him carrying out his/Jenova's will. The "real" him is in N. Crater but given how many forms he has I don't see any significance to that form other than it being the focal point of his accrued energy (he can only cast meteor when it's brought to him there).

I wouldn't call them "clones" because the actual things called Sephiroth clones are the crazy guys in cloaks you find all around the world that Hojo made that became part of his reunion theory. They aren't actual literal clones but failed attempts to make another hybrid. I can only assume they were injected with super amounts of Jenova cells/mako to make them all nuts in an effort to strengthen the effect the cells had on their behavior (or he intentionally chose weak subjects that couldn't tolerate them like normal SOLDIERs could).

The Seph (or Sephs) that we see throughout the game could be clones that he morphed into his image I guess. I think the devs just wanted to give him a presence in the game outside of the flashbacks/end, doubt there's too much to read into since the more you think about it the less sense it makes (why would he need Cloud and co. to get the black materia for him if he can just remote pilot a bunch of bodies all avatar-like).

[samalis]

Why would Sephiroth incite the reunion (the reassembling of Jenova's parts)? Unless his body was merely a vessel for Jenova, post-Lifestream, I don't think he would have much of an actual purpose to draw all the clones to himself for his revenge on Cetra's traitors. Perhaps I'm just stumbling upon these things... was the Reunion only used to draw back all the clones once one of them obtained the Black Materia? If that's the case, I'd say Sephiroth was in control and actually using Jenova to get what he wanted.

From the ultimania

**Jenova Relation 2: The Reunion* (005.1B)
Due to its amazing regeneration capabilities, Jenova's divided cells reunite
to become one again.

5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova,
going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and
where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by
focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by
way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin
migrating toward the Northern Crater.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
The Reunion is an ability of Jenova, but Sephiroth instructs the Sephiroth
Clones in the role of their master.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 2)
The main body of Jenova began migrating from the Shin-Ra headquarters because
of the Reunion. The Jenova cells in Cloud received the call of the Reunion the
same as those of the mimiced form.


*The movement of Jenova's main body for the Reunion*
Excavated 30 years ago, Jenova became the experimental material for the Jenova
Project and was placed in the Mt. Nibel mako reactor.

Jenova remained in the Mt. Nibel reactor until five years before the game,
when Sephiroth -- having learned the secret of his birth -- took off its head,
which fell with him into the bottom of the reactor. The now headless main body
that was left in the reactor was -- by Hojo's instruction and after being
utilized in the Sephiroth Clones experiment -- transported to the Shin-Ra
building.

Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to
rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be
the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the
Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova
within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its
containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra
building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused
the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept
hereafter during its appearances in various places.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
The head of Jenova from the Mt. Nibel mako reactor -- which fell into the
hands of Sephiroth -- had an influence on the focal point of the Reunion.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 2)
The shape of Sephiroth was assumed by Jenova's main body. It is in this form
that it is seen committing murders.


*The path of Jenova's main body, which came from the Shin-Ra building*
In the Story Playback section (-->P.66), the conduct of the mimetic main body
of Jenova [having taken Sephiroth's form] and that of the Sephiroth Clones
were listed in the "Black sheep information" columns. Here, those specifically
regarding the main body of Jenova have been collected.

[Niiro]

Jenova shattered its
containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra
building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused
the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept
hereafter during its appearances in various places.

That actually makes sense considering whenever we see "him" there's a Jenova fight and a random tentacle or something left over, chunks of Jenova falling off to fight us.

[Kang]

I only voted for Barthandelus because I hate ff13, so guilty by association.

[Mabubeezareel]

All this talk of Sephiroth made me do some googling on Kabbalah symbolism in FFVII - there's some really interesting stuff out there.

My vote - Kuja. Androgyny + temper of a two-year old does not a good villian make.

[ronin sparthos]

Last I checked Jenova's motive (which then became Sephiroths motive) was to drain the planet of life and then move on to other worlds presumably to do the same thing?

Sounds alot like Lavos.