Things You Should Know About Windower v4

[Kohan]

Sure, it should have been in there in the first place, and ultimately probably would have been. You need to realize this is the first public beta release for a non-profit fan project. Get over it, already.

The bolded strongly contrasts against your defense of its being a beta, as—if you actually care about that—the last thing that you should tell beta participants to do is "get over" issues. This is, coincidentally, something that people who genuinely wish to help in beta periods can't stand—holier-than-thou, white-knighting individuals who "don't want to hear their complaints," when legitimate complaints are precisely what beta testing is supposed to encourage. Now, you may be saying this because the issue has already been remedied, but nonetheless, your discouraging tone helps no one.

Everyone who said things along the lines of "it's Google Analytics, no one cares" was equally in the wrong. They do not have to care, but they are evidently not designers nor testers, nor do they share their mindset; those people understand the grand importance of protecting the end user experience. Ultimately, it's the majority of your userbase that matters more than anything else.

I had thought that this discussion was peacefully concluded yesterday, but I was apparently mistaken. If anyone has anything that's actually new to add to this discussion, feel free. Otherwise, don't bother.

[ssjjfar]

^
Not saying beta is a real excuse for this particular issue.

But in terms of bugs glitches or things being wrong in beta, its the equivalent of someone reporting a problem in a game, then the developers fixing it, and then people complaining about it still after its fixed. I mean what else is there other than "get over it". If they ignored the problem, left it as it is, or said some crap like we'll fix it when we feel like it, when we get around to it or whatever, I can understand people being upset. But its like the issue was already addressed/fix and afterward people continued to complain it became a "get over it". Should I go write SE an email telling them I don't like losing exp on all my jobs when I die on just one of them? (Obvious over exaggeration with time gap)

[dejet]

Um but that has nothing to do with data collecting. Some should remember the shit storm years back when it appeared se was gathering data With a pol update.

I could care less(it really does mean nothing lol). But if you can't understand how some people might feel betrayed, I do not know what to say.

[ssjjfar]

Um but that has nothing to do with data collecting. Some should remember the shit storm years back when it appeared se was gathering data With a pol update.

I could care less(it really does mean nothing lol). But if you can't understand how some people might feel betrayed, I do not know what to say.

Talking about different things.

Edit:
@crux too

[crux]

But in terms of bugs glitches or things being wrong in beta, its the equivalent of someone reporting a problem in a game, then the developers fixing it, and then people complaining about it still after its fixed.

We're obviously beating a dead horse here, but that's not at all what propelled the thread forward. What propelled it was the prideful attitude of "it's really not a problem, but I'll add some words and a check box for you whiners", compounded with the "tee hee, I'm not good with PR" excuse for an apology.

This is all stupid, but next time I think both ends could stand to be a little more reasonable. The accusers could stand to be a little less accusatory, and the accused could stand to be a little more apologetic (a "hey, I didn't realize, my bad" would have ended this topic on page one) and a little less prideful.

[Nattack]

Um but that has nothing to do with data collecting. Some should remember the shit storm years back when it appeared se was gathering data With a pol update.

I could care less(it really does mean nothing lol). But if you can't understand how some people might feel betrayed, I do not know what to say.

could not care less. D:

note taken on windower using google analytics. bad aureus, next time add a checkbox.

back to our normal lives now.

[Obsidian]

I think everyone was back to their normal lives approximately six hours ago, but thanks for that great contribution.

[Nattack]

but thanks for that great contribution.

rude

also irony.

[Sho]

So many people scared of the Internet.

Woop.

[nitsuj]

There are ways to disable it in my browser, but there was no opt-out in the Windower v4 Launcher.

Sure there is. Don't use it. Play vanilla POL. There's your opt out.

Seriously, you guys really like your drama. Aureus and the rest of the team have spent literally HUNDREDS of hours, unpaid, making this software. They added (under my approval no less) analytics so we can better figure out what plugins we need to focus development on and which ones are ignored. They then released a beta of this FOR FREE because everyone was excited to let you guys try it and he forgot to mention it. You know what else he forgot to mention? The credits on who worked on it. I think he's trying to take all the credit and leave the other developers out to rot! He also didn't mention the Easter eggs, I think that means he's insulting your intelligence. (/sarcasm)

So now we're going to have the windower witch trials? It's free software written over hundreds of hours (I know i'm repeating myself, but so are most of you in this thread... so I guess that's how we roll) based mainly on love for programming and a desire to keep this project alive after so many years because so many people use it.

Why try to drive the developers away? It was a mistake, and it's been rectified. Case closed. Seriously, I love you guys, but every time an app/bot/program you love stops getting updated and you wonder why you were abandoned?

This.

Aureus, Invader, Iryoku, myself and the rest of the guys make quite a decent hourly rate for our work. Any work put in to this project is completely unpaid and sacrifices time we could be doing paying work, or actually playing FFXI/FFXIV beta...

My sincere apologies for offending anyone by not mentioning Google Analytics. The team did an amazing job with this milestone and I'm personally very excited to keep using it. If you don't agree with google analytics and think it violates your privacy I totally and 100% honestly respect that. The opt out button is the blue circle on your start menu that says "PlayOnline" or the little icon that says Ashita. But you're missing out on some fabulous code and features that I really hope you'll check out. Everyone worked super hard on it.

/rant.

<3

[Vandole]

Was this your face whilst writing that?

[pugnax179]

http://cdn.bluegartr.com/customavata...ar29923_32.gif

that face instead, and yes i had to use that pic

[Kohan]

Sure there is. Don't use it. Play vanilla POL. There's your opt out.

Seriously, you guys really like your drama.

An alarmist introductory post may be dramatic, but do you know what's precisely as dramatic? Not addressing those concerns, dismissing them, and ignoring requests for transparency.

Not everyone understands the kind of work that goes into software development, and nearly everyone who isn't specifically involved in it never will. That doesn't mean that they are stupid, or unimportant. If the software is being created for them, then their concerns are just as important as design, development, and so on. It's the user experience aspect.

Ignore or dismiss that, and you're a bad developer—no matter how many sleepless nights you spent on your software.

[Cairthenn]

tldr; Addressing the concerns of the community without being a dismissive, condescending ass is a situation that you should probably attune yourself to.

[Eldelphia]

I don't really see the issue here... a bunch of people who don't get paid to do this, provide a tool. Something is raised (understandably) and there is a prompt and appropriate response. Is it good that people know? Yes. Is it worthy of huge drama? No.

[Cairthenn]

Given that one person messaged me on skype asking me to clarify the initial responses because they are incredibly unfamiliar with anything technical-computer related, I'd imagine they weren't the only one who didn't quite understand what was going on.

So that was the issue.

[Kohan]

I don't really see the issue here... a bunch of people who don't get paid to do this, provide a tool. Something is raised (understandably) and there is a prompt and appropriate response. Is it good that people know? Yes. Is it worthy of huge drama? No.

Their not being paid is not as important of a point as they would like it to be, although a lot of developers do thrust this information into people's faces, as if it would make them change their minds. The Windower team isn't the first; countless creators of all manner of things have been doing this since time immemorial. It's a way of saying, "Oh, that's what you think? Well, look what I did! Don't you feel bad now? Isn't your experience just insignificant compared to mine?" That never makes anyone feel better; it's patronizing. Why make something for someone if you don't care about their feelings? It's nonsensical.

I would say that both parties are equally responsible, but I'd personally lean on the developers a little more for their initially dismissive behavior and begrudging reaction. The post on FFXIAH was a much better example of addressing public concerns, whereas the posts here—originally—were not. Aureus was defensive, and I understood that, given that the original post was basically saying, "I've found something bad, and here it is, everyone. Panic!" That wasn't tactful, but the responses eventually degraded into something worse. Fortunately, in time, the conversation settled peacefully, as Aureus explained the functionality, what it gathers, and why—what should have been done at the start, I'd say—and at that point, I felt that the discussion had come to an end.

Obviously, it hadn't.

As for the thread being left open: I can completely understand why some people would want it to be closed, and/or merged. It is a popular topic right now, however, and this means that it's being linked to directly, which merging would break. It's also a community concern, so for now, it's being left alone.

If you want to see it die a graceful death, my recommendation would be to refrain from participating.

[Tidane]

I don't really see the issue here... a bunch of people who don't get paid to do this, provide a tool.

I don't give a shit about this thread, but this is something that does annoys me. It doesn't matter that they're not getting paid to do this. It is a red herring. If someone is willingly developing software and releasing it to the public, people can (will, and should) be critical of it. The fact that people are not being paid to develop should not be used as an excuse. As an explanation to why task 1023 or bug 156 is taking time to fix? Sure.

The entire thread was (should have been) about them not properly communicating a change that impacts the users. Apologize for not being properly transparent and making a mistake, explain why the change was implemented and what it actually does, and move on. From the information supplied, there's no reason to suspect it was malicious or intentionally left out. Everyone makes mistakes, and the only reason people are still talking about it is because Aureus handled it poorly.

Don't tell your users it doesn't matter or that they're paranoid. Don't tell your users you don't get paid, so you can do whatever you want. Not only is it condescending to those users, but it certainly doesn't help your case.

[shepardG]

Cis privilege all up in this mother.

Thanks for windower, I wouldn't be playing XI without it. I feel your pain about being accused of stealing account information. That's exactly what I thought when I read the first few posts. I about flipped my shit. I blame the OP for being a snarky pos. he could have emailed you directly, instead he acted like the god damn American media.

[Esvedium]

Thanks for windower, I wouldn't be playing XI without it. I feel your pain about being accused of stealing account information. That's exactly what I thought when I read the first few posts. I about flipped my shit. I blame the OP for being a snarky pos. he could have emailed you directly, instead he acted like the god damn American media.

That just about sums up my whole reaction to this; a moment of shock, then realization of "nothing to see here". Was there attitude given? Fuck yes there was, but this is BG after all... a community of assholes. I mean that is the most loving way. I support both the windower team and their response to this.