Geomancers: Wielders of Nature's Force (03/21/2013)

[Dotsudoku]

Merrows are chimeras too, not sure why someone called them indigenous to the reef. Megomak says they're created in Hazhalm and the Merrow NM names have numbers (like the Lamiae NMs).

I don't get the reasoning behind ranking lamiae/merrow #1 when they are actually justified in their hate for the Empire. As far as we know, destroying the Empire that enslaved them is all there's in their agenda.



How are they not sentient? That's the entire reason their faction starts. They break free and run off to the reef. Medusa certainly sounds sentient when she dies as she implies her sisters need her.

Don't get me wrong they are awful things but I don't see how they're worse than the Kindred, Tonberry, or Yagudo. Am I forgetting something?

I also don't see why they wouldn't be considered sentient, but I'm sure her reference is meant to allude to the actual mythology rather than in-game lore

[Spira]

Might be due in part to the fact that I can't recall ToAU lore too well.
I was more of the impression that lamiae were created as an abomination and were essentially monsters that run out of control. And although they seem to hate humans the story lore doesnt show them to have reason or communication at all.

Medusa herself doesn't lend much weight because she's like the only lamia who speaks. And so I think it was just more for in-game flavor. Hence the belief they aren't exactly sentient.

[Dotsudoku]

You can't really have hatred/seek vengeance without sentience '~'

[Spira]

Well that's the thing. They're not particularly discerning. They attack everyone and its not exactly clear that they do this because they were subjected to experimentation. The undead that come together with them are arguably more sentient

[solracht]

Well that's the thing. They're not particularly discerning. They attack everyone and its not exactly clear that they do this because they were subjected to experimentation. The undead that come together with them are arguably more sentient

You do realize all beastmen attack everyone, right?

The Lamiae still rally their troops and attack Al Zahbi, like the other beastmen. Was that pre-programmed into them then?

[Gannon]

If the Merrow and Lamiae did not become sentient, I doubt they would have had the ability to reject their Imperial handlers and turn against them in the first place.

[Spira]

Not qiqirn.

It's just problematic to draw the line between lore and game mechanics. Some are thoughtfully linked together but others are just there and don't have to make sense. But the degree of hostility lore wise can be inferred from the existence of beastmen NPCs. All the friendlier beastmen races have NPCs you can kinda just talk to. Then there is non uniformity in terms of hostility.

You can't really compare conclusively unless there is a level environment or precedent of the like to examine. Lamiae aren't even really beastmen, but have been hostile since they came to be "free". Trolls and mamool ja used to pay tribute and essentially negotiated to avoid conflict.

[Spira]

If the Merrow and Lamiae did not become sentient, I doubt they would have had the ability to reject their Imperial handlers and turn against them in the first place.

A tamed lion that ends up eats its trainer doesnt gain sentience. I'd say its just their instinct.

I think the bigger issue here is we're not on the same page of what defines sentience

[Chamaan]

I'm pretty sure that Lamiae and Khims are the direct result of bioweapons testing. The Lamiae rebelling was the whole reason they scrapped the "let's make super monsters out of test tubes" and started up the "well people are kind of test tube shaped and can be instilled with a sense of national pride so let's make THEM into super monsters" plot that resulted in blue mages.

Lamiae have to be intelligent. Otherwise why would they have noticed they possessed breasts and made the conscious decision to do the whole seduction thing? Are you trying to tell me some geek scientist had the chance to create a living being and decided to make it into a sultry, horny lady in some attempt to make a living sexbot? I do not believe it.

[Rocl]

A tamed lion that ends up eats its trainer doesnt gain sentience.

A tamed lion that coordinates other lions and enslaves panthers to kill its trainer is pretty fucking sentient.

Also who else have the Lamiae attacked besides the Empire? As far as I can recall they exist after the Kingdom of Epharamad.

[Chamaan]

That's the most metal thing I've ever heard...

[Nattack]

werent poroggo created by the tarutaru, and then were outed by them - and thus hold a grudge?

edit: not nearly as much story as other beastmen, but i remember reading an article about it.

[Kohan]

werent poroggo created by the tarutaru, and then were outed by them - and thus hold a grudge?

Discovered by Professor Clavauert and named after the eccentric frog princess from fairy tales, these beastmen were born in the Age of Magic. Feeling sorry for the toads that were trampled on the paths of Windurst Waters, Samariri cast a spell that made the toads grow and allowed them to walk on two feet. The Poroggos eventually learned the Tarutaru language and the arts of magic and saw themselves as brothers and sisters to the people of Vana'diel, but the Windurstian military quickly disposed of what they saw as a threat. They were originally believed to be a myth or extinct but have recently resurfaced and joined the Mamool Ja Savages, presumably seeking revenge on the Tarutaru race.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Poroggo

Are you all following so far? The Poroggos that show up in old fairy tales are no things of mere myth, but are creatures that were born of forbidden magic, only to have their lives cut short a few days later. Quite a tragic story, isn't it?

When this information was disclosed, there was another panic in Windurst Waters...but this time, it was felt by only one person: our very own Professor Clavauert.

Several years ago, during an excavation in Windurst Waters, Professor Clavauert unearthed the bones of a mysterious animal from a layer of earth several hundred years old. The following is a report of his findings to a society of scholars in Jeuno:

"At first I thought the great piles of bones dug up in Windurst Waters were a larger variety of toad, but after a full skeleton was put together, I realized that I had found a new race previously unknown to the people of Vana'diel.

"The basic skeletal structure closely resembles that of a common toad, but the shape of its four limbs slightly differs. Its hind legs are structured so that the creature could walk on two legs like the civilized races of Vana'diel, and its forelegs—or perhaps "arms" would be a more appropriate term—feature opposing thumbs. Furthermore, the size of the skull is far greater than that of a normal toad, allowing for a very large brain. Perhaps this mysterious creature evolved over a long period of time to adapt to the lands of Sarutabaruta, which at the time were very arid."

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...71/detail.html

I suppose you could call them Windurst's Lamia.

[Spira]

A tamed lion that coordinates other lions and enslaves panthers to kill its trainer is pretty fucking sentient.

Also who else have the Lamiae attacked besides the Empire? As far as I can recall they exist after the Kingdom of Epharamad.

Us?
I remember Aphmau says in a cutscene that the lamiae attack everyone, even the Empire. Whatever the case is, it seems pretty indiscriminate.

Maybe this is a pointless discussion tho. Consciousness has very little relevance with hostility.

[Rocl]

But.... we're mercenaries of the Empire.... you could say we're modern day Trolls (bazing!). The best case you could make is that we're just pretending to be Imperial mercenaries, but nigga that is literally the entire plot of ToAU. We are working under direct orders from Naja Salaheem, who is employed by the Empress (and later we're in the employ of the Empress herself).

We sort of indiscriminately attack any beastmen, I guess we lack sentience too.

[arus2001]

If you can speak another species' language, you're probably sentient. Being prone to murderous fits of rage is probably another matter entirely. And yes, I can easily see a lonely scientist making a slutty sex pet. Especially when authored by a Japanese native.

[Nattack]

yeah. would probably be my first creation.

except catgirls already exist in the world of FFXI.

[Spira]

But.... we're mercenaries of the Empire.... you could say we're modern day Trolls (bazing!). The best case you could make is that we're just pretending to be Imperial mercenaries, but nigga that is literally the entire plot of ToAU. We are working under direct orders from Naja Salaheem, who is employed by the Empress (and later we're in the employ of the Empress herself).

We sort of indiscriminately attack any beastmen, I guess we lack sentience too.

thats assuming you do the missions and sign up as a mercenary.
not like game mechanics would make such a distinction, so its a matter of gameplay vs lore again.

don't get me started on adventurers anyway.

[solracht]

Us?
I remember Aphmau says in a cutscene that the lamiae attack everyone, even the Empire. Whatever the case is, it seems pretty indiscriminate.

This is what the Trolls and Mamool Ja do too...

It's also what I meant by this post. "Attacking everyone" isn't relevant or specific to the Lamiae. I don't know why you brought it up two times.

[Rocl]

In which case all beastmen are alike in their desire in killing the Five Races because they aggro regardless of whether or not you're part of the Allied Forces, Conquest or Imperial Mercenaries. Meaning all beastmen which aggro exhibit the same behaviour you deem so heinous for Lamia.

If you really wanted to make a case for Lamia and Merrow being mindless killing machines, you should've used the fact the Empire created them to exterminate Epharamad and now that their job is done, they've turned against the Empire. (This contradicts my earlier statement, I realize, but I have the two competing thoughts in my mind and I'll have to check the cutscenes later cuz I'm tired as hell atm)

I feel I should point out that there's no real confirmation Poroggos are artificial beings, just that their is a legend about it and Professor Clarvauret named the monsters after the legend. (In fact if you want to argue a 'non-sentient' beastmen, Poroggo might be your best candidate, having no speaking roles whatsoever. Though, I feel they may have in that one ToAU quest I'll have to rewatch now. And before someone points out they cast magic therefore are intelligent: worms.)

Also the Lamia undead army being more sentient.... you're literally saying the undead zombified masses which are controlled by Lamia are more intelligent beings capable of rational thought. Antica are a hairier conversation, but they clearly have some degree of rational thought within the hive when deciding whether or not to join the Crystal War. Just as the Lamia made a clear and conscious choice to attempt to take the Astral Candescence and revive their slain enemies to do so.

I mean there's some clear lore contradiction when it comes to adventurers, yes. We are always the ONE who saved the world. YOU are always the fourth spitewarden, not your party members. YOU are the one Prishe mourns the death of against Shinryu. But arguing that because you can't receive Sanction means beastmen shouldn't aggro you is stupid. At that point, congratulations, there's a bunch of other adventurers walking around killing shit with the Empire's Sanction. There is no Geneva convention, you look like an adventurer, walk like an adventurer, talk like an adventurer, there's no reason for the Lamia to stop and go WAIT MAYBE HE ISN'T A MERCENARY. Just like when we go to Davoi we don't go "hold on bro, this Orcish Mesmerizer, he might not be so bad."