Rune Fencer Findings

[Taim Meich]

Anyhow it's a fun job, but I'm having a hard time seeing where it fits in. I guess we'll really see when the AF/Empy and merits are released :O

I really hope so, but I'm starting to doubt it.

Actually, what kind of stats and buffs to current abilities would need RUN to fit in a niche... ANY niche? I'm not even asking for it to tank anymore, I just can't imagine real tanking without a shield, and by a shield, I mean Aegis/Ochain.

[ccl]

Assuming it will do fine on magic for sure, hate tool are ok/goodenough already for what you'd bring a tank, only the ability to break pdt cap, having a farm of shadow/third eye that work for aoe, very high parry rate or a stoneskin JA on a low timer could make us go away from paladin.

[dasva]

Makes a decent sub for pld. But as a main... it's designed to only deal with magic dmg until they release a nm that only does magic dmg of 1 element or they change it so it can mitigate physical too I can't see it tanking

[Zirael]

I really hope so, but I'm starting to doubt it.

Actually, what kind of stats and buffs to current abilities would need RUN to fit in a niche... ANY niche? I'm not even asking for it to tank anymore, I just can't imagine real tanking without a shield, and by a shield, I mean Aegis/Ochain.

tl;dr: giving RUN equivalent of Ochain/Aegis is entirely possible.

Simple enough, they could just make two grips (equippable by RUN only): one grip would make you Parry 95% of physical attacks and restore 5% of your MP every time you Parry. The other grip would give you 30% MDT- and give 15% chance to absorb magic damage of each rune active (ie 3x Lux = 45% chance to absorb Light damage).

A wild idea, but you get my point, the job could turn out to be very good, but they're actually too scared to do it (it would be RDM tanking again, which, in their mentality was a very bad idea).

[Prothescar]

95% parry rate wouldn't be "very good", it'd be broken. That's a 95% chance to completely nullify physical damage, supply TP, and supply MP which works at full capacity on physical TP moves including AoEs. A similar idea that enhances parry rate by about 20~25% would be more reasonable.

[Zirael]

95% parry rate wouldn't be "very good", it'd be broken. That's a 95% chance to completely nullify physical damage, supply TP, and supply MP which works at full capacity on physical TP moves including AoEs. A similar idea that enhances parry rate by about 20~25% would be more reasonable.

It was merely napkin numbers. But wasn't Ochain99 block rate 100% or close to? There are NMs out there that do up to 1k unblocked damage. How would you survive this parrying only 50-75% time?
http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...09ebc8aeb4.jpg
I'm no PLD, but from observation, Ochain makes those 1013 hits into 101-303 hits, if I'm not mistaken? Combine Burtgang+Ochain and you get exacly what you said: "a 95% chance to completely nullify physical damage, supply TP, and supply MP which works at full capacity on physical TP moves including AoEs." If SE really intends to put RUN as a tank on HNMs, I really don't see how anything less than 80-90% parry would let you survive. Even assuming 95% parry, you'll still be taking 1k damade 1 out of 20 hits. And if it's a crit that goes through, you're pretty much dead.
Again, I'm tossing napkin numbers here to illustrate, but I hope you'll agree RUN needs to reach damage mitigation levels of fully decked out PLD and definitely above a mythic SAM or relic WAR tanking.

[Darkmagi]

How does samurai having mythic hold any relevance to this conversation? You also have to realize that the above damage was done in offensive gear. I'm assuming an all out defensive RUN would use a capped pdt/mdt set and eat defensive food.

[Prothescar]

RUN isn't meant to have the physical damage mitigation of a PLD, that would mean it replaces it; a 95% parry rate while still retaining all of the magical defenses that RUN has at its disposal is undoubtedly better than a PLD's ability to mitigate damage with either shield by a significant margin. SE worked themselves into a corner with this job, it can't really perform any better than a PLD already does at its intended role without being broken and completely replacing PLD. A much more useful thing would have been giving RUN much more offensive power than it currently has and retaining its Runes/Wards/Effusions to act as a DD with support elements; I'd probably have one in some fights if it could deal respectable damage while throwing out magic shields and shit and being much more resilient against magic dmg compared to other DDs.

[dasva]

It was merely napkin numbers. But wasn't Ochain99 block rate 100% or close to? There are NMs out there that do up to 1k unblocked damage. How would you survive this parrying only 50-75% time?

I'm no PLD, but from observation, Ochain makes those 1013 hits into 101-303 hits, if I'm not mistaken? Combine Burtgang+Ochain and you get exacly what you said: "a 95% chance to completely nullify physical damage, supply TP, and supply MP which works at full capacity on physical TP moves including AoEs." If SE really intends to put RUN as a tank on HNMs, I really don't see how anything less than 80-90% parry would let you survive. Even assuming 95% parry, you'll still be taking 1k damade 1 out of 20 hits. And if it's a crit that goes through, you're pretty much dead.
Again, I'm tossing napkin numbers here to illustrate, but I hope you'll agree RUN needs to reach damage mitigation levels of fully decked out PLD and definitely above a mythic SAM or relic WAR tanking.

Ochain block rate goes down as mob lvl goes up. There is no difference in block rate or block dmg between 90 and 99. It doesn't block anywhere near 90% dmg when it blocks like you seem to think it does. Iirc overall when you can cap block rate on both them aegis overall blocks more dmg. iirc the dmg reduction was around 65%. And even if it blocked 100% AND it blocks were a 90% dmg reduction you'd still have to stack 50% pdt to get to 95% dmg reduction... but if the run did the same they would go to 97.5%... granted burtgang could push it a tad higher but not much. So anyways even if you had a 100% block rate which you wont against higher lvl stuff or most nms without reprisal/palisade that is still only a 65% dmg reduction

As far as your can't survive question... I don't parse it but can pretty much promise you I get 95% or less on most delve nms and I survive just fine most of the time and back when they raged it would be near 0 even with reprisal/palisade after 30 min. Lvl realllllllly kills block rate.


Also I'm not sure why we are even comparing Ochain in the first place. Ochain is meant to be the ultimate in physical defense on a job that specializes in tanking mostly from physical. Run is meant to tank magic dmg and already has built in the ability to reduce magic dmg almost as much as aegis. So asking for 95% parry rate is basically like asking if run can wear ochain AND aegis at the same time.

[noodles355]

maybe run could work for facetanking the delve Jagil with his enspells! because my ego is too big to have to swap to /nin or fulltime seigan on my DD jobs.

[Zirael]

Also I'm not sure why we are even comparing Ochain in the first place. Ochain is meant to be the ultimate in physical defense on a job that specializes in tanking mostly from physical. Run is meant to tank magic dmg and already has built in the ability to reduce magic dmg almost as much as aegis. So asking for 95% parry rate is basically like asking if run can wear ochain AND aegis at the same time.

An example of supertanking 5 morimar NMs for PUG plasm farm: you use Ochain by default, but when you see eft casting something you don't like - gear swap Aegis for few seconds, then back to Ochain. Of course I'm not calling it dual wielding both shields, but it's as close as it gets. Nothing would stop you from doing the same for Tojil's Meteor or whatever. Kills off your DPS by resetting TP, but at the same time you burn slightly less hate by reducing more damage. And if you're using 2 PLDs, one is getting Decoy Shotted anyway.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, merely trying to show a different perspective.

[Khary]

Also, if RUN is meant to be a tank their af/empy/relic etc better have some emnity on it. Most things they can wear at this point have none of that @.@. A side note, I find that WAR sub is a must if you're going to tank because flash just doesn't seem to be enough to keep the mobs attention consistantly. WTH is a tank supposed to do with blink and SS, the only way I can reliably cast these is to flash the mob then cast blink. Trying to cast it while the mob is swinging at me is almost impossible because it's such a long casting spell. I dunno this job seems very "oh here we'll give it this, oh and that too and there done!" type of feel to it, as if SE just tossed it together lol. Like I said before it's still fun and I'll prolly finish leveling it just because

[Taim Meich]

I, on the other hand, consider RUN an excellent enmity generation machine. The runes are on a 10 second timer and give very respectable enmity. Just macroing a basic enmity set when using runes (dux set, invidia torque, a pair of cheap rings, a cape I don't remember the name of) give a very good boost to RUN's enmity. The other JAs also gove good enmty, and then you have Flash and Foil. Well, Foil is too expensive and too useless to be spammed, but can at least be used for a boost if you need more enmity.

That, and RUN does more damage than PLD, that helps, too.

[Sechs]

The little I tried it I agree with Taim. Also Foil appearently gives a lot of enmity too no?
I just find the self buffs a bit annoying to cast with so little fastcast, and using Hasso/Seigan doesn't make that any better

[Khary]

Hmmmm ok, well I can only judge up to lvl 54 at this point. Interesting to hear you say the hate control gets better. Must level faster! @.@

Are you guys subbing Sam then? And still finding hate control to be ok?

[Taim Meich]

Hmmmm ok, well I can only judge up to lvl 54 at this point. Interesting to hear you say the hate control gets better. Must level faster! @.@

Are you guys subbing Sam then? And still finding hate control to be ok?

Oh, hate control is definitely an issue. Because, you know... No matter how much enmity you generate, if you eat dirt a few seconds after getting the mob's attention, you're controlling no hate at all >_<

[kenshyn]

A well geared pld for DD has access to some insanely nice dd gear as well as defensive gear not sure if the comment can out damage a pld is true or by all that much given runs lack of real offensive buffs. On the other side if they don't do something drastic can't really see a reason to bring RUN to much atm that another class can't do just as well at the moment. My run gear is pretty sick but the deeps just isn't in the class and the ability to take physical damage like a sponge is crazy. I wish at least they let RUN use heavy armor this light stuff is for the birds. I actually better tank on Blu and have way more mitigation tools to use and <3 magic barrier. The job needs some serious love in my book.

[Streak]

I sub Sam, and my RUN has no problems with hate control from the safety of my Mog House.

[Khary]

Oh, hate control is definitely an issue. Because, you know... No matter how much enmity you generate, if you eat dirt a few seconds after getting the mob's attention, you're controlling no hate at all >_<

lol ok fair enough, I have to be honest after I read your past there was a faint glimmer of hope that Run could tank decently vs physical mobs, but now that idea is smooshed ; ;

[Khary]

I sub Sam, and my RUN has no problems with hate control from the safety of my Mog House.

LOL, watch out those spinning moogles are deadly!