Rune Fencer Findings

[dasva]

Yeah I don't know about the old ones but the new I tested to be ~-75% (exact numbers are hard to get in ballista since there is some weird dmg reduction in there that plays weirdly with others but sdts seem to be always in 25% increments so that's probably it)

On top of that it also had insane water resistance. I'm talking like pulling it out at 99 with no ilvl weapon vs a cor with average ilvl of 117 with 115 weapon and macc/agi where I could throw it in still resisting 80-90% of the water shots at most were 1/8 resists. Most water shots were basically doing 1/32 of the other elements

[Sechs]

Bit out of topic: do you guys think RUN can generally be as good as an Aegis PLD for Avatar KI fights? Worse? Better?
Talking about (D) and (VD) only.

[Rwolf]

I just did some quick general testing, hopefully it helps despite the less than ideal conditions and sample size.

I did notice an increase in water damage (well less resistance) on Twitheryms with Rayke on. I just chose them since I figured they weren't weak or strong to water and right next to the Jagils xD

RUN/RDM Ilvl 118
INT+176
No main hand weapon
No MAB or M.Acc gear on. No Ionis
No Job Points/Gifts
Firesday (I know not the best day for water testing)
No weather effect
*Rayke 1/5

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Zoldeff Jagil - Foret de Hennetiel - Incredibly easy prey. Low evasion/defense

Water I (No Rayke)
10 10 44 10 10 10 10 10 10 89 10 10 10 10 89 10 10 10 10 10

Water I (1 Unda rune Rayke)
21 179 21 [wears off message] 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
23:35:55 Rayke activation
23:36:23 Wears off (28 seconds)

Water I (3 Unda rune Rayke)
22 92 22 22 [wears off message] 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
23:41:49 Rayke activation
23:42:17 Rayke wears off (28 second duration)

Water I (3 rune Rayke with Futhark Boots on activation)
22 22 22 22 22 [wears off message] 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
00:07:10 Rayke activatation
00:07:39 Rayke wears off (29 seconds)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Careening Twitherym - Foret de Hennetiel - Incredibly easy prey. Low evasion/defense

Water I (3 Unda rune Rayke)
109 13 13 28 13 26 13 14 26 54 14 13 54 59 [wears off message] 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 13
23:50:47 Rayke activation
23:51:15 Rayke wears off (28 second duration)

Water I (3 Unda rune Rayke with Futhark Boots on activation)
59 54 59 59 54 [wears off message] 13 14 13 14 13 14 14 13
00:12:50 Rayke activation
00:13:20 Rayke wears off (30 second duration)

[Kyte]

Bit out of topic: do you guys think RUN can generally be as good as an Aegis PLD for Avatar KI fights? Worse? Better?
Talking about (D) and (VD) only.

I would say about equal.

[Sechs]

About equal. More or less it's my idea. Actually RUN can probably be slightly better, and you don't need a relic weapon (Aegis) to achieve similar results.
But supposing we're not wrong, then why is the general idea of players so far off?
People wouldn't trust a RUN to tank their Avatars fights.

Is it because the job sucks in general and Avatars are one of the few exceptions where it shines? Is it because too few people are using the job, leaving most other people oblivious to its true potential?
Is it something else? I don't understand.

[FaeQueenCory]

Sechs, it's because people are stupid.
The majority of people when RUN came out saw the GS and went "derpderpderp /SAM cause DD"... I can't tell you how many times I watched RUN/SAM eat their shit from basically everything. Oh wait, I can. It was all of them. Every time.
With Inspiration, it became easier to negate the negative effects of subbing SAM... (Though when you have to NEGATE what your subjob gives you... You'd think that would send the message that that's a bad sub.... But the GS=DD mentality is still in full stupid, even now.)

With 55%PDT, RUN can tank a plethora of stuff. (Hells, with only 50% it can.)
The "problem" with RUN's damage mitigation is twofold: heavy physical NMs will eat it (though foil helps), and it's not like Aegis-PLDs who reduce all damage types: RUN only really mitigates 1 damage type at a time effectively.
This is why RUN isn't the best at Foret (water+ice nukes) or Ceizak (physical stinger move), is pretty good for Morimar/Kamihr/Yorcia and excels at Marjami (2/3 of Caimlin's autoattacks are freaking Thunder magic).

And any 99 content where 99-Aegis-PLD could get one-shotted (think Alicorn and their triple charging lasers of death), RUN just laughs at. (Most of the time, they can't even break SS.)

And for things like the avatar fights... Only thing RUN has to worry about are the lv70 physical BPs. (Except Ifrit's... Cause Flaming Crush RUN can mitigate fairly well.)

All in all, RUN's biggest problem isn't its physical damage mitigation (that's the second) it's people being seeing past the GS for the Truth: RUN is not a DD, so stop gearing it for DD.

People who gear RUN for DD and expect to tank like that are the ones people see just dying left and right and fail at mitigating any damage.
RUN has 0 problems maintaining hate... Minor problems establishing hate in a secondary tank position (as in all the DDs have lots of hate already)...
But the real problem the job has as a functional main-tank is just the collective stupid of the people.

Cause the people be racist yo!
(Same reason why everyone right now is all THFhappy but shades DNC... Even though aside from TH, they do the same thing... It's not like DNC can't Rudra's as well as stack it with auto-crit +%STATdmg ability...)

[Kanriel]

I just can't get into playing RUN with /sam, even for a CP party it just doesn't feel right. The ffxiah guide says /war is crap for it, but I'm not seeing how, think once I go back to cp farming I'll be going /war and see how that goes.

Standard tank subs are /blu and /nin for all/most content, right? Which do you guys use for each fight? Eat defense food and /blu workable for AA's? Any other subs people using? How effective is sentinel as /pld, just as a matter of interest?

Also, could this mean Rayke could allow stuns to hit after hitting a stunwall?

[Sechs]

Fae you're stretching what I asked. Even though I don't think it's true, I can understand people's reluctancy into accepting RUN as a tank for a wide array of content.
I was talking specifically for Avatar fights, which is something where I think RUN can really shine, maybe even slightly better than an average PLD.
Yet people seem to be particularly scared of letting a RUN tank even in those contents where in theory RUN is really awesome.

I was wondering why the general idea is like this, if there are good reasons for people to think like that and it's me who's positively biased.
Ultimately I was wondering what would be necessary to "change" this general opinion.


@Kanriel
If you got some sort of support, /DRK can be a nice DD option too.
And for Stun + Rayke... well yes, it might just work, same for Sleeps etc. I'm curious about this now, even though honestly I doubt it would change any strategy, given how much Rayke lasts, given how long the cooldown is, and given how you can't really afford to waste an alliance spot to bring a RUN with the sole goal of using Rayke if shit hits the fan... I mean, even if it worked, it just wouldn't be realistic to find yourself in such a scenario.

[FaeQueenCory]

It's not so much that I was stretching what you asked, but I simply expanded upon it to the whole of the game.
(I DID say the only "issue" with the Avatars is stuff like Predator Claws and Rush. Just have to watch out for those and plan your PT accordingly. Other than those, RUN excels at them.)

And I think I answered how to "change public opinion" though not directly.
Simply put: stop acting like RUN is a DD.
If you gear like a DD and expect to tank, you will fail, and as a result people think the job is bad at what it's supposed to do. (Though it also doesn't help that we have "I'm full 119" stupid running around right now too... Full Qaaxo RUN isn't gonna be able to tank. "But it's full 119". Yeah, but has basically 0PDT. And this isn't a RUN problem, it's a player-iLv problem.)

/SAM is bad, not for the +50% cast time (though that does hurt, but can be compensated with gear) but the +50% recast time is what kills RUN.
Kan, I have no idea why /WAR is frowned upon other than that it isn't "teh bestest". It's decent. But nothing to write home about.
/BLU is surprisingly awesome for RUN. Shockingly really. Since usually /BLU just amounts to quirky outside-the-box fun... But for RUN, it's beastly potent.

So really, to clarify, just be a tank. Gear RUN like a tank. Act like a tank. BE a tank.
If you do that, people will start to stop belittling the job... Sorta.
It'll still take some time... But that's just how it is with new things. Especially when those new things are so weird as RUN.

EDIT: and just to clarify, I'm not talking about theory or paper. I'm speaking from experience. Being RUN in Delve runs and Avatar2s.
Haven't done any AAs on RUN... But I'd imagine that /NIN would be best. And let's face it, utsusemi is the same regardless of your main job. (Though Inspiration cracks that out.)

[Kyte]

I just can't get into playing RUN with /sam, even for a CP party it just doesn't feel right. The ffxiah guide says /war is crap for it, but I'm not seeing how, think once I go back to cp farming I'll be going /war and see how that goes.

What's there not to see- It's STP and JA haste.

/WAR is frowned upon because it's inferior as a DD sub but subpar as a tanking sub. It really has no niche.


Also- you should be trying to maximize your damage while still maintaining survivability- as should PLD for that matter.

[Damane]

Bit out of topic: do you guys think RUN can generally be as good as an Aegis PLD for Avatar KI fights? Worse? Better?
Talking about (D) and (VD) only.

equal or better, a proper defensiv played RUN will take less dmg then an aegis pld in those fights. battuta fiol really go long ways to mitgate also the Avatars physical dmg moves.
and ergon weapon RUN however will stomp an aegis pld in avatar KI fights any day.

[Sechs]

I have no doubts about Ergon RUN xD
But I had more a "normal" RUN in mind.

The dangerous moves of those fights imho are:
1) Predator Claws
2) Chaotic Strike
3) Rush

Annoying but not dangerous things are the stun/paralyze on Ramuh, and the Paralyga on Shiva.
Everything else is pretty trivial for a RUN, but those moves can oneshot you on VD if you're unlucky (and have no Battuta/other stuff up).
Well as long as your latency doesn't suck and you pay attention to the chat log, you can easily go "out of range" of those moves, but that's unconvenient if you're in a "Tank + RNGs" setup, which is kinda the default setup where you'd even want to deploy a RUN or a PLD of course.
I guess those moves are pretty dangerous for a PLD as well though, unless he dynamically swaps between Aegis and other Physical-oriented ones.
If a PLD gets hit by one of those moves with Aegis up I assume they can be pretty dangerous as well (I guess at least? I'm not a PLD myself).


Still, it's a shame people have no issues in trusting PLDs yet they do not trust RUNs for these fights. If there's a type of content where you should really feel comfortable in trusting a RUN tank, that's gotta be Avatar fights =/

[dasva]

Yeah I don't get it either because unless you are switching between aegis and ochain between those moves (which most plds don't) a pld is just as likely to get 1 shotted by those moves. Maybe even slightly more so assuming similar gearing because aegis effectively has no real blockrate on stuff that high.

[Kyte]

There's a sizable part of the player population that still unconditionally prefers BRDs to GEOs, so this shouldn't be a real surprise.

[Damane]

There's a sizable part of the player population that still unconditionally prefers BRDs to GEOs, so this shouldn't be a real surprise.

people just takeing one or the other are doing it wrong, get both into the pt!

[Kyte]

There's a sizable part of the player population that still unconditionally prefers BRDs to GEOs, so this shouldn't be a real surprise.

reading comprehension

[Rwolf]

I did some more light Rayke testing. I'm pretty sure it's not a Tomahawk type move that works on special magic defense only. It works just fine at increasing the damage of my nukes consistently. I think it's solely just a magic evasion debuff.

If I had the assume based on testing, Futhark Boots are likely more magic evasion down. As with my first test, with and without the boots on Twitherym my Water I was doing more consistent damage.

RUN/SCH Ilvl 119
INT: 187
No main hand, MAB or M.Acc gear on. No Arts (Elemental Skill 145)
No Job Points/Gifts
Rayke 1/5


Watersday (no weather)
Zoldeff Jagil – Foret de Hennetiel - Incredibly easy prey. Low evasion/defense.

Stone I without Rayke
17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17

Stone I with 3 Tellus rune Rayke
147 73 73 73 [Rayke wears] 17 17 17 36 17 17 17 17 17

Windsday (no weather)
Ashen Tiger - Kamihr Drifts – Very Tough. High evasion/defense.

Water I without Rayke
14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14

Water I with 3 Unda rune Rayke
58 58 58 58 58 [Rayke wears] 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14

[dasva]

I did some more light Rayke testing. I'm pretty sure it's not a Tomahawk type move that works on special magic defense only. It works just fine at increasing the damage of my nukes consistently. I think it's solely just a magic evasion debuff.

If I had the assume based on testing, Futhark Boots are likely more magic evasion down. As with my first test, with and without the boots on Twitherym my Water I was doing more consistent damage.

When I did it I used dark arts and it definitely only worked when I did the right element and in exact amounts. I was probably capping hit rate anyways so it looks like it might be BOTH

[Rwolf]

When I did it I used dark arts and it definitely only worked when I did the right element and in exact amounts. I was probably capping hit rate anyways so it looks like it might be BOTH

You're correct. It looks like it is indeed both magic evasion down + removes special defense down for magic.

RUN/SCH ilvl 110
INT: 102
Dark Arts; Elemental Skill 387
No MAB or INT+ gear
206 Magic Accuracy
Rainstorm + Klimaform
Windsday

Pugil – East Ronfaure (Right outside the gate)

Normal: 84 84 84 84 84
3 Unda Rune Rayke: 169 169 169 169 169
3 Unda Rune Rayke + Futhark Boots: 169 169 169 169 169

Wild Rabbit – East Ronfaure (Right outside the gate)

Normal: 169 169 169 169 169
3 Undra rune Rayke: 169 169 169 169 169
3 Unda Rune Rayke + Futhark Boots: 169 169 169 169 169

Could someone update the Rayke page to reflect that it's magic evasion down + -species damage taken?

[dasva]

So tried testing something that that had a more general anti dmg so tried Blest bones which are said to only take dmg from thunder, fire and wind... turns out that isn't completely true stone was dealing 1 (I'm fairly certain I was capped dint and had no mab so normal dmg would've been 160). No change in dmg. Tried against pots which are known have mdt no change in dmg. Tried thunder on earth elemental again no dmg change. So seems wont work with general mdt or all but certain dmg types nor extreme resist types like elementals....


Still removing sdt and -meva is still not too horrible