Attack and Defence update

[dasva]

wait till u damage a mob to 85% and pull hate on a haste or slow

That actually doesn't sound too crazy, preupdate you wouldn't have been too much more than the person casting at that point. Assuming they did reduce it to 30% of old chances are you'll have much lower CE then those spells have VE and alot of your VE may have decayed by that point and your dmg would've killed some CE. That said the person casting wont keep it. All but 1 CE of that hate will 100% decay away on it's own in 5 seconds.

Either way this will all be easier once we get firm values again and learn to play with enmity again

[NynJa]

So we should only bother debuffing mobs when they're about to die? >.>

[dasva]

I think it's more of a use your hate tools and enmity gear lol. I mean provoke is still more than 5.6 times as much VE as slow. Hell just initial pull provides 200 CE (on top of whatever the action is) vs slows 300 VE 1 CE

[Kohan]

Whenever anyone feels that someone else is wrong, try to do more than merely calling them "idiot." (Explaining yourself would be a fine start.) We're trying to figure things out here, not attempting to out-"your mom" every other poster.

[Rhiannon2]

And yes, pretty much all the mages I play with are mules (why would they need to be anything else).

Sounds like this LS I know that enters Legion and Odin 2 with 4-5 mage mules and wonder why they can't get that far.

[Kohan]

Sounds like this LS I know that enters Legion and Odin 2 with 4-5 mage mules and wonder why they can't get that far.

And to think, I just suggested laying off of the "your mom"-caliber insults.

(I don't believe it's fair to assume that you would have seen it before submitting your latest post, so I give this one a pass.)

[Obsidian]

Not sure what happened, but I was tanking all the butterflies on one side of a root in Yahse, ran to hit one that spawned because I was silenced/para'd, and lost half my group to someone on the other side of the root for no apparently reason. It was pretty strange.

[Rhiannon2]

And to think, I just suggested laying off of the "your mom"-caliber insults.

(I don't believe it's fair to assume that you would have seen it before submitting your latest post, so I give this one a pass.)

You are right that I did not see it till I hit Post. And while I don't see any ad hominem barbs in my post directed to the OP akin to Nynja's, I am more than happy to state it in a less pointed tone that elaborates upon why I believe the statement is wrong: "It is wrong to posit that mages need not be anything other than mules because certain events in the game are benefited by having a well-geared, skilled, non-dual-boxed mage."

[Kohan]

You are right that I did not see it till I hit Post. And while I don't see any ad hominem barbs in my post directed to the OP akin to Nynja's, I am more than happy to state it in a less pointed tone that elaborates upon why I believe the statement is wrong: "It is wrong to posit that mages need not be anything other than mules because certain events in the game are benefited by having a well-geared, skilled, non-dual-boxed mage."

You don't have to be that fancy, but I admire your spunk.

[perdition]

I'm sorry, theres a difference between pulling hate from cure spam in a 5 minute fight, and from ripping hate from 1 cure3 at 80%.

That's good to know... Like I said, I have yet to actually do anything but solo, so I have not experienced it yet. I'm sure the mechanics may be broken, but simply judging from some of the post, I was curious if the game has changed so much that -enmity gear was no longer being used. I will have to give this whole cure 3 at 80% thing a try pretty soon. Going back to my previous post, perhaps RDM tank is back baby lol.

[dasva]

Well the thing is cure enmity actually went down too. By alot. Sounds like dmg might have been hit harder not sure yet but a fully skill decently geared mage with tranquil heart (which really kills it for most jobs with cures) should be producing suprisingly low amounts of enmity. Hell even without minus enmity gear it is still rather low. The thing is there is the world of difference in temporarily pulling hate for a second or 2 once and keeping hate lol

[Atoreis]

Wouldn't BLU/mnk be one of the best tanks now? 70% counterstance with no def penelty ( cocoon + counterstance ), 9-10 blink shadows, ability to spam spells with hate (blank gaze, geist wall, jettatura, Voracious Trunk, Temporal Shift, Actinic Burst, Warm-up, Exuviation, Animated Wail, Regeneration etc.), ability to boost evasion. R/E PLD is probably still better at surviving but not sure if anyone can match BLU at keeping hate?

[fantasticdan]

If the point is to reduce damage taken while tanking, I'd think you'd be better off with blu/war defender than blu/mnk counterstance. Blu already gets counter job trait, so you're talking about +75% defense vs 45% counter (or 35% if you were using orcish counterstance, I don't think they stack?). A blu dedicated to tanking probably isn't going to be sitting at 95% acc either.

[Atoreis]

If the point is to reduce damage taken while tanking, I'd think you'd be better off with blu/war defender than blu/mnk counterstance. Blu already gets counter job trait, so you're talking about +75% defense vs 45% counter (or 35% if you were using orcish counterstance, I don't think they stack?). A blu dedicated to tanking probably isn't going to be sitting at 95% acc either.

First of all I made some mind shortcuts. I assumed Orcish Counterstance ( it also gives +50% dmg to counters ) + counterstance.
Counter is like haste. The more you have the more it is useful. For example if you have 0% counter and add 5% you will reduce hits you take by 5%. When You add 5% on top of 50% you will reduce hits you take by 10% ( You will get hit 9 times instead of 10 ). The whole point around blu/mnk is to not lose CE while taking damage. Assuming mob accuracy is at 90%:
90% that it will hit You
90% (not sure what % it is exactly) to blink that attack
~65% to counter attack that will go through
0.9*0.1*0.35 - That gives ~3% chance that mob attack will actually hit You (Its actually less considering flash effect and improved evasion). Im pretty sure its better than /war.
As for accuracy? You can eat sushi if thats necessary. /mnk also gives you focus and dodge.

Oh thats obviously only works for mobs that can be countered ( ie not a Mantis, Ironclad etc. ) For those /war and turtle mod sounds really good but in this case PLD will probably be better.

[fantasticdan]

A few things:

-Blu is going to have floored evasion against everything relevant
-You can't keep blink up anywhere close to 100% of the time. Occultation has a 90 second base recast time, costs 138 mp, and blink shadows get fully removed (and don't absorb the damage in the process) by like every aoe ever. I don't think the absorb chance is as high as 90% either.
-You're going to lose significantly more enmity every time you get hit rocking counterstance + sushi as opposed to defender + rabbit pie or whatever. Especially by TP moves that you can't counter. Seems like this would cancel out what you would have gained.

[Prothescar]

BLU's maximum counter (without atma) is ~68%.

Counter II (13% presumably)
Counterstance (45%)
O. Counterstance (10%)

+50% dmg on each counter with OCS. Cocoon negates the entirety of CS's DEF down. As Atoreis said, combined with other things such as Flash, Stun, and Occultation it's a pretty potent setup on things that don't require a fuckton of maintenance.

[Atoreis]

A few things:

-Blu is going to have floored evasion against everything relevant\
Dont really want to argue here but I assumed 90% acc for mob. If you push it to 95% it will change final result by 0.3%...
-You can't keep blink up anywhere close to 100% of the time. Occultation has a 90 second base recast time, costs 138 mp, and blink shadows get fully removed (and don't absorb the damage in the process) by like every aoe ever. I don't think the absorb chance is as high as 90% either.
Obviously some mobs are much worse for blink tanking than others. You are on the other hand ignoring effects of stun/flash/paralyze. Each of those can be used to increase the chance to not lose shadows from AoE and maintain Occultation till next recast. Im also pretty sure absorb rate is around 90% for Occultation blinks.
-You're going to lose significantly more enmity every time you get hit rocking counterstance + sushi as opposed to defender + rabbit pie or whatever. Especially by TP moves that you can't counter. Seems like this would cancel out what you would have gained.
I would say its situational ( like always :D ). Which sub job will be better will completely depends of mob's abilities. One way or another tho BLU looks like a very solid tank now.

.

[Prothescar]

Occult absorb rate is about ~75%, but the first shadow is anomalous, almost always or always allowing absorption.

[Atoreis]

Occult absorb rate is about ~75%, but the first shadow is anomalous, almost always or always allowing absorption.

You was testing or just guessing ?
I had a feeling that absorb rate goes down when level of mob hitting you raises.
If You haven't test it You should ( I am a fan of your tests actually XD )

[Vyvian]

Has anyone noticed changes in evasion on jobs that don't have floored evasion. I do a lot of Dynamis farming trio (rdm thf dnc(me)) and I could swear my evasion was unhappy in the smaller zones that I locked SJ on for overkilling. After the update, I really see improvement, mainly because I don't have to heal myself as much anymore. I wish I had parses of pre-update dynamis to compare, since I know it could be eyeballing error. Also, I feel like TP moves miss more in Salvage II now that the update came. I don't recall evading like anything (on mnk), and now I do at least 10% of the time.