Salary Negotiation Tactics

[Acevalefor]

I don't even have a degree and I make more than that doing corrugated cardboard CAD design all day every day. It took me less than a year to get the experience required to be in my position. She has been interning for 2 years and has a degree in that field. There is no reason at all to consider accepting $45k.

[Stromgarde]

She screwed herself at her current place of work with the lowball offer. I doubt she's going to be able to salvage it there, but with those kinds of grades and a Mech E degree she isn't going to be hurting for offers. Just make sure she's smarter about what she asks for in the future.

[Takedown3]

sounds like this guy doesn't want to take the advice he's asked for. go ahead and tell your friend to do whatever the hell you think he should do.

[Mazmaz]

people acting all surprised that engineering students are the most socially awkward people lol

[warc]

Actual socially awkward engineering student about to graduate and I wouldn't take 50k/yr salary. Salaried positions positions get paid more for a reason. They are unofficially required to work way more than 40 hours a week. Entry level engineers and regular staff engineers also earn the company about 2-3x more than any other engineering position. A good lesson learned from this person. I won't be lowballing myself in any interview.

Also, location matters a lot. Being in socal, salaries are a big higher than say kentucky. I've seen entry level civil offers for 150k+ but in Dubai where 150k gets you basically nothing. Being in SoCal, and having friends who've recently graduated 60k a year seems reasonable as a starting offer, but 40k seems reasonable elsewhere in the country.

[Abandon]

i just wanna point out that i make more in the military being enlisted than her 45k offer, lol

[Boyiee]

Yeah, I make more without a degree even with a civil service job, but I can't negotiate a salary. It is what it is. When I'm done with school maybe.

[Ddz]

Welcome to being a woman in the workforce, lol. Fair pay, my ass.

[Mazmaz]

Yes it's about her being a woman, not about her being a loser.

[Churchill]

i just wanna point out that i make more in the military being enlisted than her 45k offer, lol

Are you an E-6? Your adjusted should be less than that unless you're making up for it hugely for things like being overseas or if you work on reactors or something.

My adjusted was higher when I was an E-5 but that included a lot of special pays.

[Abandon]

Overseas, and special duty assignment. E-5

[Abandon]

COLA is mah nigga

[Conrad]

have her read this, it's aimed at engineers

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

[Xajii]

Welcome to being a woman in the workforce, lol. Fair pay, my ass.

Yeah, it's totally that, and not that she lowballed the fuck out of her initial offer and apparently didn't do research about the kind of pay she should be getting.

She asked for lower than what she's being offered now.

Please do not try to shoehorn what could otherwise be a worthwhile discussion into something where it so clearly does not belong; it really devalues the importance of the issue when it IS relevant

[Blubbartron]

That shit makes me sad. Wish more companies were like mine. They *do not* negotiate salary. With anyone. Ever. People are compensated based on merit, and the initial salary offer is based on qualifications coming in the door. What that means is someone with less qualifications will have a lower starting salary, but if they prove to be as capable as other people in their first year, they might see a 20-25k raise to "catch up" to their peers. No bullshit about percentages, just fairness.

[Acevalefor]

That shit makes me sad. Wish more companies were like mine. They *do not* negotiate salary. With anyone. Ever. People are compensated based on merit, and the initial salary offer is based on qualifications coming in the door. What that means is someone with less qualifications will have a lower starting salary, but if they prove to be as capable as other people in their first year, they might see a 20-25k raise to "catch up" to their peers. No bullshit about percentages, just fairness.

Sounds great in theory. The problem with that model is greedy managers that don't give a damn about your qualifications and will screw you then tell you to your face that it is your own fault. Then we need to talk about "fair". Fair is and always will be subjective. What one company or manager thinks is fair might be far left of what another company thinks is fair. Then we think about the employee's point of view and yet another version of fair arises. And what qualifications decide starting salary? Does your 4 years of academic knowledge outweigh my 6 years of application experience? What about my previous experience in construction that means I have a better understanding of framing practices? Or maybe your 6 months internship at Holt better qualifies you to do structural design but leaves holes in your project management skills.

The whole thing can get very subjective and will only work with the right people in charge and the right people applying for the job.

[Blubbartron]

Sounds great in theory. The problem with that model is greedy managers that don't give a damn about your qualifications and will screw you then tell you to your face that it is your own fault. Then we need to talk about "fair". Fair is and always will be subjective. What one company or manager thinks is fair might be far left of what another company thinks is fair. Then we think about the employee's point of view and yet another version of fair arises. And what qualifications decide starting salary? Does your 4 years of academic knowledge outweigh my 6 years of application experience? What about my previous experience in construction that means I have a better understanding of framing practices? Or maybe your 6 months internship at Holt better qualifies you to do structural design but leaves holes in your project management skills.

The whole thing can get very subjective and will only work with the right people in charge and the right people applying for the job.

I don't really follow the greedy managers thing. Unless you work for a small company, your boss suggesting you deserve a raise does not cost the boss money. And conversely, "screwing" the employee does not net the boss more money.

I agree, things can be very subjective, but the more objectivity introduced the better things will be. At my company that was heavy, heavy testing before getting offered a job. I took a pen and paper programming test, and then 3 more tests for basic logic, math, and ability to learn new programming languages quickly as part of my 8 hour on-site job interview. A lot of people cringe at this kind of screening method, but frankly I respect my colleagues much more for knowing they also made it through that.

I suppose it's possible that engineering is wildly different from software development/design. At the end of the day we just solve problems, and measuring problem solving ability is simultaneously the easiest and hardest thing to do. Regardless, the entire concept of haggling and salary negotiation pisses me off. Haggling well doesn't make someone better at the job, and people should be paid/compensated based on what they can do, not how well they can talk up what they do. I guess in our current society I would call it a "necessary evil", and one that I hope will go away as the old fuckers that believe it's the right thing to do rapidly die off and the younger generations with a concept of fairness take over.

[Nesssie]

The tech company I work for has a bulletin board for all the engineering job openings and they all start at 70k+. I think your friend needs to apply somewhere else so she can have some kind of a comparison for salary and benefits.

[Xajii]

I don't really follow the greedy managers thing. Unless you work for a small company, your boss suggesting you deserve a raise does not cost the boss money. And conversely, "screwing" the employee does not net the boss more money.

I don't... I don't think you know what the fuck you are talking about.

The money has to come from a budget, and even if your company is continuously growing, you have to be able to make the argument that your value is greater than any alternative for that money. Whether or not the extra money would go into the boss's pocket or elsewhere isn't really the issue here, though ti is definitely somethign to consider at a company of any size because even if it doesn't directly impact the boss's salary, a tightening of budget would certainly put more pressure on it. If you trust those in charge to make this decision entirely on their own and do not allow you the opportunity to pitch your case and discuss numbers in a way that helps you meet a strong agreement, you end up with less valuable workers because disgruntled people who got shafted leave for better places to work. Hell, this is especially bad at a large company, because the chances that the person making the decision has a good understanding of the worker and what they bring to the table are slim. You gotta be able to make your pitch. When I go in for a raise, I bring in a portfolio of the projects I have done, information on their success, examples of work perofrmed outside of my job description, tangible ways I have improved practices, current and anticipated future projects where my expertise offers high value, and so on.

Initial salary negotiation at the point of higher is risky and can't be treated the same way as a raise negotiation. If you enter into an initial salary negotiation with a number too high, you might just get shwon the door. This is especially bad because many job applications now ask you to suggest a salary number before you go in for an interview or get evaluated at all. It's a nasty way of weeding people out and it's how a lot of entry level stuff is going these days - only look at the resumes asking for low money and choose the best out of them, because it's best value when you're looking at a lower level job. If you get the opportunity to negotiate after being evaluated with the understanding that they want you, on the other hand, you probably do it closer to what you'd do in a raise - ask for a little higher, see them bring it down, bring it back up to where it should be for you (with a little wiggle room, honestly).

Another thing is that if you don't get the opportunity to negotiate your salary you might just straight up not get what you want. Oftentimes slaary negotiations include changes in your vacation or sick hours or even your work hours in general to accommodate for something like a lack of money in the budget for a full dollar value raise.

[Acevalefor]

I don't really follow the greedy managers thing. Unless you work for a small company, your boss suggesting you deserve a raise does not cost the boss money. And conversely, "screwing" the employee does not net the boss more money.

I agree, things can be very subjective, but the more objectivity introduced the better things will be. At my company that was heavy, heavy testing before getting offered a job. I took a pen and paper programming test, and then 3 more tests for basic logic, math, and ability to learn new programming languages quickly as part of my 8 hour on-site job interview. A lot of people cringe at this kind of screening method, but frankly I respect my colleagues much more for knowing they also made it through that.

I suppose it's possible that engineering is wildly different from software development/design. At the end of the day we just solve problems, and measuring problem solving ability is simultaneously the easiest and hardest thing to do. Regardless, the entire concept of haggling and salary negotiation pisses me off. Haggling well doesn't make someone better at the job, and people should be paid/compensated based on what they can do, not how well they can talk up what they do. I guess in our current society I would call it a "necessary evil", and one that I hope will go away as the old fuckers that believe it's the right thing to do rapidly die off and the younger generations with a concept of fairness take over.

The greedy manager thing comes from my personal experience with shitty managers (specifically the manager that hired me at my current employer then lost his job 8 months later for abusive behavior) that translate "efficiency" into "low pay, high hours" in attempts to impress the company administration with how much they can get done to put themselves in a better position to negotiate their pay. Basically, the less they pay me, the more money they think is available to pay them.

Good screening and testing is a great way to objectify and standardize the qualification standards. The company has to actually set up and stick to those policies though. I agree that good negotiation skills do not necessarily translate into good job performance.