Delve

[Jem]

Just to back-up what Kohan said, I'd point out that the reason we use the RNG strategy is because we already had like 8-10 99 Anni/Yoichi in the LS so finding 4-6 for per run wasn't remotely difficult. Absolutely nobody in the LS has gone out and levelled RNG or gone and made an Anni/Yoichi as a result of the strategy that we use.

If we did not already have these resources available to us then we most assuredly would have tried other strategies before going 'Ok people, go get Anni/Yoichi'. I'd also point out that using RNG's wasn't our first choice. We tried melee methods first because that's what we're used to and what people are better geared for (not that any of our RNGs are gimp in the slightest).

[Thundarian]

You weren't presenting your side of things as, "My Linkshell doesn't have any/a lot of RNGs with R/M/E, so I'm working on a strategy that will serve us in the interim;" instead, it was "I don't understand why anyone does this thing that everyone says works so well, and I hate them for having their resources!". That isn't really going to get anyone to help you.



Actually, it's more along the lines of something I said not too long ago in this thread:



If you want to develop an alternative strategy because one strategy is not an option to you, coming into it by saying "your strategy sux, lol" is not going to inspire anyone to help you. Throughout the lives of the RQT and What's Better threads, people have presented and explained their scenarios, and have received constructive feedback in response.

It's not impossible to get what you want, and it isn't the notion of formulating new strategies that's being rejected. What's being rejected is your acting like those people who can execute a certain strategy should not because it doesn't work for everyone, and that's silly.

See, here is the issue. You are reading "your strat sux" and "I hate them for having resources", but that doesn't exist at all in my post, nor the post I quoted. The post I quoted in fact, was a reaction to being attacked for suggesting bringing a pup instead of a dragoon for something, aka the 'not being open to trying new things, this might work better for some people, we should try a more balanced party setup'.

Also, no one ever suggested those people don't execute their strategy. Once again, you are reading something that doesn't exist. No one is attacking your strategy. People are saying that it probably won't work for everyone, we should consider alternatives. It is great that the RNG strat works for some people. I'm glad people are killing the boss. I don't think that is a good reason to not look for more options that are easier / more accessible to the general public.

tldr: No one attacked your strat or suggested it sucks or is jealous or thinks you should stop or anything of the like, so the whole 'lets get pitchforks and go on the offensive' mindset getting presented in the last few pages is absurd and really kills any hope of discussion on other strats.

[ccl]

There is always the pup strat.

Didn't see those on wiki nor 1st post, so here some Foret NM info:

T1 Cracklaw: Doing magic damage allow physical dmg to go up, max physical dmg done to it depends on magic damage, if your magic dmg is too low, you'll start hitting for 0.

T2 Uragnite: It take more damage the more enf it has on it => es impact/dia/requiem/para/geo stuff => rng out of aura range =1-2min fight.

T5 Krabw/e: 4mura sam= 2min fight(start in ugui till it resist physical then mura), prolly work with formless strike mnk too

[Malithar]

tldr: No one attacked your strat...

I still don't understand why people are fixated on stacking rangers instead of just bringing a BRD + SMN setup for stacking earthen armor + scherzo (not to mention the tons of other useful buffs a SMN could roll on a party) for a 78%ish decrease to the damage in the big hits.

Imo if people actually bothered to make a balanced party setup to use all the avaliable buffs / debuffs instead of mindlessly zerging BRD Cor WHm DDDDDDDD over and over things would be a lot easier.

Maybe where I come from is just socially backwards, but that's not how I'd approach well established groups and posters regarding "hay guys, cool strat, but it doesn't work for everyone, can we work together on figuring something else out?"

When groups have succeeded with their strat, and you walk in as a new poster with a seemingly unheard of "knowledge" of the game, telling them how it SHOULD be done, well, yeah, your result is gonna be the past 4 pages.

Specially when your "strat" won't work due to the damage taken being under Scherzo's point to trigger, Earthen Armor being far too weak to keep DDs up inbetween, nevermind the Smn could never keep it up enough to actually be a viable strat over the long run. Oh, but they've got a bunch of other useful buffs too guys! What happened to keeping your melees alive with it? Edit: Derped and was thinking of Earthen Ward. Regardless, as the incoming damage has been seen to typically be under the 75% trigger, its not particularly viable.

Whether there are gimmicks to them like every other Delve NM, or they're meant to be tough as nails and for specific groups to take them down (remember, Matsui DID say the Delve mega bosses were going to be tuned to the highest ability groups at the start) is still to be seen, but going about searching for that answer as you did isn't going to get you anywhere on these forums, or anyplace really.

[Thundarian]

Maybe where I come from is just socially backwards, but that's not how I'd approach well established groups and posters regarding "hay guys, cool strat, but it doesn't work for everyone, can we work together on figuring something else out?"

When groups have succeeded with their strat, and you walk in as a new poster with a seemingly unheard of "knowledge" of the game, telling them how it SHOULD be done, well, yeah, your result is gonna be the past 4 pages.

Specially when your "strat" won't work due to the damage taken being under Scherzo's point to trigger, Earthern Armor being far too weak to keep DDs up inbetween, nevermind the Smn could never keep it up enough to actually be a viable strat over the long run. Oh, but they've got a bunch of other useful buffs too guys! What happened to keeping your melees alive with it?

Whether there are gimmicks to them like every other Delve NM, or they're meant to be tough as nails and for specific groups to take them down (remember, Matsui DID say the Delve mega bosses were going to be tuned to the highest ability groups at the start) is still to be seen, but going about searching for that answer as you did isn't going to get you anywhere on these forums, or anyplace really.

Perhaps my language was open to misinterpretation, but considering the context with the quote that I chose, I would assume you could figure out what I was saying. I will attempt to find more free time to make posts as to not offend your sensibilities in the future.

That said, if you are going to question my game knowledge, you probably should at least look up with earthen armor is. Hint: it isn't the same thing as earthen ward. Good job discounting my idea and attacking me without actually having any clue what I was suggesting. Clearly my game 'knowledge' is the issue here.

[Jem]

The problem is this. You are making suggestions when it is extremely unlikely you have any experience of these fights yourself.

EA/Scherzo will not work because they won't proc unless you're weakened and if you're weakened, you're getting 2 shot anyway even with EA/Scherzo.

Not buffing the shit out of people with BRD's and COR's also will not work. You need those buffs so that you can A. Hit them and B. Do damage when you do hit them.

Anybody who had actually tried the fights themselves would know both the above.

Now that isn't to say you must have experience to be able to contribute. However, you're suggesting strategies that can easily be ruled out from experience or have already been tried. So yes you are not going to get a good response given how you worded your original post.

[kenshyn]

There is always the pup strat.

Didn't see those on wiki nor 1st post, so here some Foret NM info:

T1 Cracklaw: Doing magic damage allow physical dmg to go up, max physical dmg done to it depends on magic damage, if your magic dmg is too low, you'll start hitting for 0.

T2 Uragnite: It take more damage the more enf it has on it => es impact/dia/requiem/para/geo stuff => rng out of aura range =1-2min fight.

T5 Krabw/e: 4mura sam= 2min fight(start in ugui till it resist physical then mura), prolly work with formless strike mnk too

Weird on the cracklaw it must be something with how blue magic works it seems after awhile of pretty much mostly sa+ benthic typoon the damage goes insanely upward not changing much of anything just blu/thf going in over and over again every minute. I seen personally peeps hitting it for 50k+ still not sure of what triggered that rise do recall one guy did a self chain but most was just doing CA+efflux+SA+BT....

[Jem]

Our basic strat last night was 'Hey MNK, go hit that with Formless up' > Wait a bit > Melees hitting for several thousand per swing and WS'ing for 50k+

I tried barraging it but the melees zerged it down too quick and it only had enough HP for 1 hit to land. It still did 14k.

There does appear to be a window of opportunity / some sort of reset though.

[ccl]

both time 10-11% of magic dmg allowed for 20-21% of extra physical dmg.

[kenshyn]

Our basic strat last night was 'Hey MNK, go hit that with Formless up' > Wait a bit > Melees hitting for several thousand per swing and WS'ing for 50k+

I tried barraging it but the melees zerged it down too quick and it only had enough HP for 1 hit to land. It still did 14k.

There does appear to be a window of opportunity / some sort of reset though.

So mnk only on it until formless strike was off and zerg? Well that really makes that guy trivial. That seems even easier then matata lol..

[Taint]

Timed out on the Bee at 15% last night. We had just over 25min once we were setup and engaged. Damage almost came to a hault around 25%. Besides the insane shadows he gained and enhanced EVA my Namas were down in the 1200 range. I parsed the RNGs. Looks like I'll be throwing some merits into Bow, that was really the only difference between my setup and Krisstina's. Pretty big difference between the RNGs, with ACC so low you pretty much can't stack enough. I went /DRG this time and damage was barely lower then /WAR with the obvious benefit of never pulling hate.

Spoiler: show

http://beast40.com/Kparser/rng.jpg

[Jem]

Looks to me like Genosuke/Gimpking weren't stacking R. Acc gear?

[Byrthnoth]

Did he start doing more damage too? Sounds like a rage inside Fracture.

[ccl]

Did your 2 rng with around 40%(well 36% and 46% is quite low compared to other) racc get the same buff ? If so you should check their gear set/food.


edit: derp!

[Fake]

Do you have full gear sets/sj/buffs for every rng. The difference between your weakest rng and your strongest rng is over 10% of its hp.

How long did it take to go from 100>25 and 25>15?

Doubt its rage since I remember Jem/ccl's group came right down to the wire on their tojil win so they had likely been engaged for a similar amount of time.

Edit: Did you have filters on, what was the melee party doing damage wise.

[Jem]

Our Tojil took 26 mins and we didn't hit any noticeable killspeed drop that would be indicative of rage. However, when he killed me at low % he did hit way harder than I had ever been hit by him before.

It's not impossible that they have stat changes at different %'s though. It is extremely obvious that Tojil takes less damage 100 > 75 and increased damage 75 > 50 for example.

When we did Bee, I didn't really notice any changes though. Killspeed was pretty constant for the entire fight. I'm at work atm but can check the logs when I get home tonight to see if %'s were mentioned in the chatlog.

EDIT: Looking at total parse damage from Taint's post and that they timed out at 15%, I'd say melees did ~80k damage (or at least that's roughly what is missing from the parse)

[ccl]

Yep we still do over 3k Namas@ the end of bee, and we saw the same evasion boost@25%, maybe whoever was supposed to DIA forgot or something ? If buff/debuff stayed constant, that's really odd.

[Fake]

Isn't 80k for the whole melee party very low. I'm pretty sure some early attempts on bee, during the last 10mins when the final wall used to come down, involved ~4 buffed melee taking it 30-40% in that time.

[Jem]

I think I did like 30-40k (39k rings a bell) in 2-3 minutes on DRK before dying then didn't bother hitting it after unweakening.

Got to remember that their melees might not have been as buffed and may have died. They also may not have taken many or had them engage sparingly.

[Fake]

Well looking at the parse its 4rng, 1brd, and 2 cors (presumably swapping). You want at least a couple of melee for chapuli, assuming they fought it, and they would likely have a brd in that party also.

Conservatively they would have had at least 2 melees, probably 3, with access to 4-8 songs and 4 rolls with swapping. Thats not to say they did that but there is the means to in a well set up alliance, and even with 3 deaths each in a 25min fight 2 melees should be able to put out well over 200k between them.