Delve

[Taint]

I didn't parse melee. Geno/Gimp were using generic RNG gear. (good gear but not ACC focused) Pretty sure they both have 95 weapons too. Not really my business to tell them how to gear, I go as a guest. Geno pulled hate and died, was our only death besides Melee. We were only using 1 melee when he died the other would swap in.


Edit: Yeah 3 melee, didn't parse their damage. We did butterflys > Chapuli. 8 Songs, 4 rolls on both DD and RNG pty. But we did not go hard with the melee at all. They also weren't geared for his EVA.

2 easy fixes would be to finish gearing the other 2 RNGs for a pure ACC build and to go harder with the melee, especially in the beginning when he his EVA is lower and takes lots of damage.

[Jem]

It's possible but clearly they did not do it as an extra 200k damage would have killed it or left it at 1%.

Getting the melee 4 rolls / 8 songs is easy in practice but if they keep dying, then reapplying is a pain. Especially if they are individual deaths rather than all melees as a whole.

I know after I died, buffers weren't really interested in rebuffing me if I went near it which was the main reason I didn't re-engage.

EDIT: It may not go over well with some LS members but what Ccl did with our members was to make them show him their sets before entering. If they didn't have an Acc set then they either had to quickly make one or job change or gtfo of the ally. Obviously you can't do that as a guest though.

[Fake]

Yes I'm aware they didn't do 200k, I was saying that they could've gotten a lot closer to that number than the one they did get to.

As for rebuffing, assuming all the buffers aren't being 2boxed I would've give a fuck if they were interested in doing so or not, as long as their rebuffing melees occassionally doesn't impact on their ability to maintain the rng party then I can't see the issue. I'm in no way suggesting that melees should get arise and have 12 rolls/songs ready to go as soon as arise weakness wears off, but you can certainly take multiple runs at the NM over the course of 25mins. If you can do this even twice over the course of 25mins focusing on 1 melee at a time running in, with 2 melees you should still be pulling 150k+.

I don't understand the remark about going near it unless you were the decoy shot sacrifice. If you were then fair enough, its not a question of buffers being interested or not its a question of self preservation and not MPKing rngs/mages.

[Jem]

I was fine for the original buff cycle but once I was actually hitting the mob then the buffers were reluctant to buff me because they would get killed. I couldn't come back to them to get buffs because there was the potential for me to have hate.

So yeah, you're pretty much good for 1 buff cycle per death without risking the buffers dying.

Outside of DRG for Angon, I'm not sure we'd bother taking melees for Bee anymore. Unless the DRG couldn't hold the lesser NM's off the RNG's I just don't really see a need for them.


EDIT: I will say this was 1 isolated incident and the buffers never outright said 'We're not buffing you because we'll die'. If time had been tighter then yes I would have demanded they buff me. It wasn't so I didn't see the point of risking them dying. They probably noticed the same thing as me, they didn't need to risk buffing the melees because it was still going to die with bags of time to spare.

I mean just to put a timeline on it. I died at ~80%. By the time I unweakened (because I died twice reraising), it was at 15-20%.

[Fake]

The chance of you pulling hate in that scenario seems very unlikely, realistically when you die you aren't going to have over 5,000CE (since you're taking constant damage and your DPS is very low compared to normal mobs), and if you utilise the RR from arise you can drop that by another ~2k (well timed equipping of full plastron set while weakened and you could probably get your CE a lot lower but thats probably overcomplicating it). The the rngs are all likely to be pulling hate before you at that point.

I'm not saying its worth bringing melees to damage boss, I'm saying that its possible to utilise them far more. If your brds are being played by individual people and not 2boxed the pianissimo would also take care of then brd songs and luzaf's ring would keep the cors completely safe.

Obviously taint was a guest and can't dictate anything to the group he is with, even if you ignore the damage lost from the 2 rngs not having 99 relics or acc sets (this dps boost alone would have killed it or come very close) they could be extracting far more from their melees.

All the things I'm suggesting are fairly low level expectations (for a good ls full of competant players), its asking a cor with 7.5m rolls on a 50 second recast to do maybe 5 rolls in a cycle rather than 3

[Byrthnoth]

Armor Shatterer gives 16% defense down and can be maintained by a single puppet full time vs. Angon which is 25% defense down. Also, there are only about five relevant pieces of PUP gear (which take an afternoon to acquire) and beyond that it you just need capped automaton ranged skill.

[Fake]

I mean just to put a timeline on it. I died at ~80%. By the time I unweakened (because I died twice reraising), it was at 15-20%.

If every other ls reporting their attempts on this was killing it that fast then I'd agree with most of what you said. My comments are based around the fact that these groups aren't killing it fast enough.

[fantasticdan]

Capping ranged auto skill takes an insane amount of time thou.

[Byrthnoth]

Not anymore, really. Alternator gives something like +300 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy, so you can pretty much start in Abyssea and afk for most of your skilling up. My Automaton's ranged hit rate was floored against level 90 worms in Abyssea - La Theine with Drum Magazine (and 11 skill), but his melee was hit-rate capped with 130 skill. One worm lasts a long long time against an Automaton with shitty skill.

[fantasticdan]

Not anymore, really. Alternator gives something like +300 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy, so you can pretty much start in Abyssea and afk for most of your skilling up.

This is what I've already been doing, with scripted water/wind manuevers. 300+ with drum magazine and percolator I'm getting around 5 skillups per hour afk on nms.

[kenshyn]

This is what I've already been doing, with scripted water/wind manuevers. 300+ with drum magazine and percolator I'm getting around 5 skillups per hour afk on nms.

But still follows the old rule faster skill ups in the sweet spot whats your current skill vs mob level?

[Jem]

If every other ls reporting their attempts on this was killing it that fast then I'd agree with most of what you said. My comments are based around the fact that these groups aren't killing it fast enough.

I really hate throwing the phrase around but this basically boils down to them getting their RNG's (or buffers/debuffers) to suck less. Compare Taint's parse to our RNG's (Assuming 25 mins flat for Taint's parse)

Anni 1 - 251k / 278 DPS / 68% R Acc
Yoichi 1 - 167k / 186 DPS / 68% R Acc
Yoichi 2 - 157k / 174 DPS / 83% R Acc
Anni 2 - 150k / 167 DPS / 60% R Acc

Krisstina - 198k / 132 DPS / 84% R Acc
Taint - 160k / 106 DPS / 68% R Acc
Gimpking - 114k / 76 DPS / 46% R Acc
Genosuke - 97k / 65 DPS / 37% R Acc

To me that looks like a buffing/debuffing problem because even with similar Acc, the DPS difference is pretty large and we all know Taint is a good player. Obviously the RNG's with low R Acc also need to gear more accordingly for the situation.

EDIT: Our Anni 1 is such an outlier that it still surprises me. But that is really what he did and he never pulled hate either. That's gotta be pretty close to the optimum possible for a RNG just because of how far ahead of the rest it is.

EDIT2: That's unrelated to your previous comments for the record and purely based on the killspeed difference.

[Byrthnoth]

With such insane Acc levels, I have to feel that we're just overpowering some mechanic that we're supposed to defeat with a gimmick.

401 Acc from skill
~83 R.Acc from AGI (including gear, bard song stat buffs, and food)
60 RAcc from traits
172 RAcc from equipment
20 RAcc from Aftermath (probably, maybe 30 based on the average difference between gun and archery rangers)
~50 RAcc from Hunter's Roll (with bonus) on average
65 RAcc from Prelude x2 if the same as Mads and sung with 99 G-horn
79 RAcc from Squid Sushi +1 (not known, but would be comparable to the Sole cap +10%)
41 Evasion reduction for the enemy from capped Torpor from Geo

971 effective RAcc

Shadows below 25% being what they are, there was still 75% of the monster without them so the ranged accuracy numbers should be somewhat reliable. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the monster has 900-1000 evasion.

[Fwahm]

167 RAcc from Ammo?

[Taint]

With such insane Acc levels, I have to feel that we're just overpowering some mechanic that we're supposed to defeat with a gimmick.

401 Acc from skill
~83 R.Acc from AGI (including gear, bard song stat buffs, and food)
60 RAcc from traits
167 RAcc from Ammo
20 RAcc from Aftermath (probably, maybe 30 based on the average difference between gun and archery rangers)
~50 RAcc from Hunter's Roll (with bonus) on average
65 RAcc from Prelude x2 if the same as Mads and sung with 99 G-horn
79 RAcc from Squid Sushi +1 (not known, but would be comparable to the Sole cap +10%)
41 Evasion reduction for the enemy from capped Torpor from Geo

966 effective RAcc

Shadows below 25% being what they are, there was still 75% of the monster without them so the ranged accuracy numbers should be somewhat reliable. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the monster has 900-1000 evasion.

He gains shadows at 50% but they were pretty ridiculas below 25%.

[Byrthnoth]

Sorry, that was equipment. Does he gain them after a specific TP move? Could you just have a RDM spam Diaga?

[Jem]

Spamming agas doesn't work to strip them. It's like a blink Aura or something.

[Fwahm]

I haven't fought this one, but Diaga doesn't work on Colkhab's shadows; when the aura is up, it's just blink with infinite charges, so until the aura goes down, there's simply a fixed (probably) chance to hit a shadow.

[Fake]

Part of the frustrating part of the "suck less" comes from the fact the 2 ls's that have posted kills have been playing pretty coy, specific questions are being answered but its not like we've been given any full strats. Yes we can piece together the alliance setups now from all the bits and pieces of info given out and I doubt theres any surprises but a single concise post with alliance structure and buff rotations would still be welcomed.

I am in no way saying you are keeping everything a big secret and most of the information is already in this thread, but the refusal to give a single post that outlines everything you did to get such a comfortable win is obvious.

[noodles355]

Armor Shatterer gives 16% defense down and can be maintained by a single puppet full time vs. Angon which is 25% defense down. Also, there are only about five relevant pieces of PUP gear (which take an afternoon to acquire) and beyond that it you just need capped automaton ranged skill.

Why would you take 16% def down when you could take 25% def down? Unless you desperately need that last party spot for something?

I still can't read this pup stuff as anything other than "let's take a more complicated option that takes more effort and is inferior in it's role just because".