Delve

[Obsidian]

That's been the case with the majority of content for years. Every event has a best way of doing something. Also I think you're exaggerating with 4 jobs. I think the bee attempt had 8 (?) different jobs there? I don't know about trex.

Seriously, the fixation on different (read: rng, drg) jobs being used for this just screams "boo hoo I can't just hit shit on war/drk/sam anymore". So you have to use a different job, or even worse level a new one (*gasp*), toughen up princess and get on with it.

And before you, or anyone else argues "I dont have anything against rng being needed, I'm against relic rng being needed" I'd like to remind you that the Devs themselves said that the mega bosses were designed to be beaten by the very top tier groups at first and It's time you came to terms with the fact that that isn't you (Not you personally, Obsidian, it's against anyone who would argue this last point, I'm not saying you are or not).

PLD, RNG, BRD, COR, WHM, GEO, DRG and a misc. person is what I've gathered most of the successful runs take. The issue is that success basically hinges upon the Rangers, which in my opinion is a problem. There will always be an optimal/most effect setup for something. The problem is that currently there's precisely one very specific way to kill these things, and the "strategy" is to throw uber RNGs at it. The game has 10+ damage dealing jobs; why is designing content that can only be done by one of them acceptable?

[noodles355]

something about doing tojil tomorrow at 1pm

[Jem]

Probably the same reason it's been acceptable for certain DD jobs to be top of the totem pole for so long and mindlessly zerg shit dead.

[Obsidian]

Only thing I could see maybe being useful on SCH is rotating through parties for Animus Minuo (and I guess Adloquium at the same time) and possibly tossing up a buffed Windstorm for that (ever-so-)slight r.acc boost that the 12 AGI would provide. It's retarded that Animus spells are still party only at this point anyway.

At least Animus spells aren't self-target only. What use does RDM have for Gain-CHR? (Please ignore that it's not useful for anything anyway.)

[Slycer]

PLD, RNG, BRD, COR, WHM, GEO, DRG and a misc. person is what I've gathered most of the successful runs take. The issue is that success basically hinges upon the Rangers, which in my opinion is a problem. There will always be an optimal/most effect setup for something. The problem is that currently there's precisely one very specific way to kill these things, and the "strategy" is to throw uber RNGs at it. The game has 10+ damage dealing jobs; why is designing content that can only be done by one of them acceptable?

I don't think anyone is saying that this is the only viable solution. It just happens to be the safest one and the only one that's worked so far (also, saying it's the "only one that's worked" is a fairly misleading statement anyway, considering only a handful of groups have successfully defeated the bosses). I'm sure someone will come around sooner or later with a viable alternative strategy that works that incorporates some melee jobs as well. Remember how specific Legion setups were at the start with SMNs using Perfect Defense constantly, etc.? That changed pretty rapidly (before any major content changes happened to Legion) and I suspect the same will happen here.

[dasva]

At least Animus spells aren't self-target only. What use does RDM have for Gain-CHR? (Please ignore that it's not useful for anything anyway.)

rdm/bst of course

[Alistrianna]

Can someone post a video of 1 MNK with Hundred Fists killing Mata please? Also 2 MNKs with no HF. 1 HF did just 60% yesterday.

You need to use sushi, rigors, brd needs to give madrigal x2 or mad/minuet and actually gearing for hundred fists would be a good start. If the brd is giving out marches during hundred fists, you aren't getting any benefit from it. like nynja said, if you aren't using rigors you will not be able to do enough dmg regardless of the situation.

[dasva]

Probably the same reason it's been acceptable for certain DD jobs to be top of the totem pole for so long and mindlessly zerg shit dead.

Yeah kinda have to agree with this... rng hasn't shined in so long and still wont be brought for much else. Yet for toher stuff I still see war drk sam or gtfo. Or mnk onry so fair is fair

[ccl]

We used rng in legion too

[dasva]

Sorry meant in the stacking way other dds can be

[Obsidian]

Probably the same reason it's been acceptable for certain DD jobs to be top of the totem pole for so long and mindlessly zerg shit dead.

I would argue this situation is slightly different, in that "take the strongest DD" is not the same as "only RNG is safe enough to use." Using a MNK instead of a WAR was at least an option in zerg content. Here that doesn't seem to be the case thanks to the AoE damage and lack of enmity controlling JAs. The former situation was a job balance thing. This one is a content design thing.

[Slycer]

I mean that's really the problem right? There are like... four? jobs that all do the same thing, essentially. MNK, WAR, DRK, SAM. DRG also, really, if you exclude Angon. So when you look at it from that point, it looks like a problem where you're excluding four or more jobs and including only one in their place. However, RNG brings something to the table that's totally different from any other job, so "stacking RNGs," as discussed above, should be a strategy that's just as viable as "stacking DDs (of all flavors)" or "stacking BLMs" or stacking whatever other thing you want to stack, assuming the situation calls for it.

What I'm saying is having a party with four rangers and support shouldn't be getting any more flak than having a party with MNK WAR DRK SAM and support given the proper situation.

Blame SE for having too many DD classes (or too few ranged classes), but it is what it is. I'll never understand why people have five DD classes leveled up and geared but no mages, support, or ranger, when the utility of DD classes is essentially identical outside a very small handful of situations.

[Jem]

Pretty much what Slycer said.

I mean it's not like it's solely a DD issue either. I mean you're taking 4-6 buffers to these fights which basically equates to 2-3 BRD, 2 COR, 1 GEO.

You're taking 2 tanks to them and your only option is PLD.

You're taking multiple healers and whilst you do have options here by and large people are going to revert to WHMs.


Part of the problem is that we have some unique ish jobs which don't translate well to alliance content so you're scrubbing out a lot of jobs straight away. The other part is what Slycer said; people have shitty job spreads. Too many people in the DD only mindset so now there's fights where melees aren't great, people complain because they don't have a useful job for them.

[noodles355]

The issue is that success basically hinges upon the Rangers, which in my opinion is a problem.

It's become fairly obvious that you'd prefer RNG to be back where it was before - having almost no practical use - and go back to war/drk/sam for everything.

Edit: Slycer got it completely right. What's the difference between a party of Ranged DDs vs a party of Melees vs a part of Nukers?

I mean, what if the mega boss was extremely weak to magic and highly resistant to melee and the most sensible option was to take a group of Blms Geos and Schs? Would you still say it sucks that you can't kill it with war/drk/sam/mnk? Because the principle would be exactly the same.

[Damane]

I would argue this situation is slightly different, in that "take the strongest DD" is not the same as "only RNG is safe enough to use." Using a MNK instead of a WAR was at least an option in zerg content. Here that doesn't seem to be the case thanks to the AoE damage and lack of enmity controlling JAs. The former situation was a job balance thing. This one is a content design thing.

the problem isnt the AoE damage, I can survive just fine on bosses (the bee as it is) as GEO with my 45 PDT and 26 MDT+25 Shell V set (my WAR has around the same on the hybrid haste set or more). the problem is the high accuracy you need to constantly hit the bosses which makes it near impossible to put out consistent damage with a hybrid/haste set. You can melee it on DDs, you just cant go balls out without dying, its actually pretty evened out now, the only reason why RNG wins is because of low enmity generation via Relic gun and Decoy shot dummies. Put RNGs with delve gun and they cant go balls out either, well they can to some extent but they need to be way more carefull.

[Systematicchaos]

Edit: Slycer got it completely right. What's the difference between a party of Ranged DDs vs a party of Melees vs a part of Nukers?

I mean, what if the mega boss was extremely weak to magic and highly resistant to melee and the most sensible option was to take a group of Blms Geos and Schs? Would you still say it sucks that you can't kill it with war/drk/sam/mnk? Because the principle would be exactly the same.

DD parties of mnk mnk mnk mnk brd sch/rdm for enspells and formless strikes of course.

[Obsidian]

It's become fairly obvious that you'd prefer RNG to be back where it was before - having almost no practical use - and go back to war/drk/sam for everything.

Not at all. I just think that if the content was designed to only be reasonably completable by one job, that it was designed poorly. You should be able to include RNG without excluding WAR MNK SAM NIN PUP DNC and RUN.

Edit: Slycer got it completely right. What's the difference between a party of Ranged DDs vs a party of Melees vs a part of Nukers?

I mean, what if the mega boss was extremely weak to magic and highly resistant to melee and the most sensible option was to take a group of Blms Geos and Schs? Would you still say it sucks that you can't kill it with war/drk/sam/mnk? Because the principle would be exactly the same.

The difference is that there are ~3 (excluding automatons and avatars) nuking jobs (BLM SCH and lolRDM) as opposed to one and a half ranged jobs (COR is being brought along regardless, but lacks Decoy shot). If the content is designed to be done with a focus on magic damage, you have options for where that magic damage comes from. If it's designed for melee damage, you have options for where that melee damage comes from. If you're designing it for maximum ranged damage with supreme enmity control, there is no real option; you need Rangers.

This is the reverse problem that arose with Embrava, Perfect Defense and Utsusemi. Instead of designing content specifically to negate something, they've designed content with (apparently) extremely strict job requirements. AoE spam (in general) precludes a melee-heavy approach, the high HP precludes a zerg, the timer precludes low DPS jobs like SMN, and effective enmity management precludes basically everything else (because they refuse to give Paladin/Ninja/Rune Fencer any tools for controlling enmity from a party/alliance standpoint, but that's another matter entirely). Instead of "you can't do it this way", we're at "you can only do it this one incredibly specific way."

[Darkmagi]

I can confirm that a jp group took tojil down to 13% with mnk based DD on phoenix. I'm not going to give other details other than the obvious usual buffs/debuffs, but you can down these with non rng setups.

[Jem]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Melees are good on these fights if you can keep them from dying. I'd imagine for Tojil you would need ensure Lahar was stunned so that they remained effective or rotated your DD's hitting it I guess.

Melees will most assuredly out DD RNG's if they stay alive, stay buffed and keep the debuffs on the melees to a minimum. Therein lies the problem, it's not impossible though. It's just harder than the RNG method.

I've even mentioned a few times that melees are viable.

[Rhiannon2]

I am actually amazed that we have received so few apps after our wins given that other groups are struggling and we are recruiting. We've received a few apps from Asura but not many.

Would have thought more people would have applied since the wins are pretty desirable and the S/S isn't exactly bad either.

Guess we should have actually publicized it!

Success and advertising doesn't always translate to more apps. There are lots of reasons apps decrease, such as seasonal reasons, inability to commit to regular LS events, or the recruiting requirements of the target LS.

Of course, there's also reputation (not saying that is reason here, just listing reasons). Before I left Lakshmi for Fenrir, there was one shell that kept advertising on AH.com forums. They were competent enough and were able to clear Odin v.2/Legion a few times, but they had several members that were deemed undesirable by a lot of others. Its leader's rep was also destroyed after some stories of lying, stealing, and general assholishness got around. Think they eventually disbanded after leader got Duplus Grip but dunno.

I'm enjoying Fenrir's LS scene and who knows, a few shells with Anni/Yoichi RNGs might band together for these Mega Boss fights. Which I imagine is what will happen on other servers lol.