Delve

[Motenten]

Oh and are any of those dps calcs for bst taking into account af3+2 body? That should basically be giving at a minimum +5% dmg to everything the bst does with KI down 12% with it up not counting the KI bonus itself or merits into killer effects or some killer effect gear

Yes, that's accounted for in the bst spreadsheet. There's a flag to toggle it on.

[Prothescar]

It isn't difficult to observe a 100,000HP drop through parsing or even by noticing if it's going down faster than normal. I'd expect the bosses to be resistant, but not totally immune.


Also I completely forgot, Turtle Stomp is -25% DEF and can be used for a 100% uptime. If accuracy is even moderately reliable, a BST could potentially be several factors more useful than a DRG due to 90~100% uptime Angon-potency DEF down and the initial -100k HP.

[Julian]

Maybe if your dragoon sucks, but if that's the case you're probably not killing the trex anyway.

[Prothescar]

Oh so the DRG's skill directly correlates to Angon's recast time now. Got it, thanks for the tip.

[Dotsudoku]

Even a good DRG is going to contribute substantially less than everyone else you're with. The only things that make them comparable to preferred DD are Upu and Ryu. A maxed out Ophidian is going to do ~30% less than a mediocre DRK

Not to mention that, assuming the aforementioned setup, a BST that drops a Purulent Ooze on Tojil has done approximately 50% of what each designated DD is expected to put out over the course of the run in all of three seconds

[Prothescar]

Couple that with the fact that Angon isn't exactly the cat's tits compared to BST's defense down capabilities and we've got more than just "lol ur drg sux" and more of a "BST might actually be viable" thing going on.

DRG is putting up an average of 17% DEF down over a 10 minute fight assuming Angon every time it's up + a guaranteed reset from Wild Card and Spirit Surge Jump.

BST is putting up an average of 18.15% DEF down over a 10 minute fight using only the slug's Corrosive Ooze, so not even considering Tortoise Stomp.


Damagewise, a BST shouldn't be any more than 25% behind a DRG in the most dire of circumstances. Add in the potential to spit out that -100,000HP right at the beginning of the fight and you're looking at a reasonable replacement in terms of relative damage output while contributing superior defense down over the course of the fight. Once again, this is all assuming reasonable accuracy for the effects landing.

[Eanae]

This thread went full retard. Stop trying to make BST and PUP happen. It's not going to happen.

[Prothescar]

Forgoing logical, progressive thinking due to some sheep who has a negative bias demanding that I should wouldn't be very becoming of me.

[fantasticdan]

This thread went full retard. Stop trying to make BST and PUP happen. It's not going to happen.

Because making a pup centric alliance is the same thing as replacing 1 drg with 1 bst right?

[Julian]

I don't think you understand how much damage a good DRK and DRG do. They're not going to be replaced by a BST or BLU. Damage on the previous NM's also matters.

And if you're taking 10 minutes to kill Tojil you're likely going to start running into stun resists.

[Dotsudoku]

Nobody is suggesting that successful groups drop their strategies, but equipped with the knowledge that not everyone has a Muyingwa kill under their belt or a Ryuonohige in their roster, alternatives should be encouraged

..or need I remind you that not but a few pages ago relic rangers were "an absolute necessity" for these fights?

[Dotsudoku]

I don't think you understand how much damage a good DRK and DRG do. They're not going to be replaced by a BST or BLU.

I don't think you realize how large the gap is between an Ophidian and a Bereaver under identical conditions

[Prothescar]

I don't think you understand how much damage a good DRK and DRG do. They're not going to be replaced by a BST or BLU. Damage on the previous NM's also matters.

And if you're taking 10 minutes to kill Tojil you're likely going to start running into stun resists.

No I do understand it, very clearly in fact. That's why I believe the option is there rather than just sticking to "let's throw the highest delay, highest damage weapons possible at things" mentality; you can not ignore the fact that BST provides more utility than a DRG while at the same time coming in much closer in terms of relative damage output than you seem to think. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand how much damage jobs do relative to each other, and when superior utility begins to bridge the gaps that come between a 1h axe wielder and a polearm wielding job that thrives only by the virtue of having ridiculously powerful weapons rather than being a good job by itself. BST is an option if the required conditions are met.

Let's ignore the fact that DRG is pretty terrible in terms of damage output compared to a good DRK or WAR. Maybe your DRK is terrible?

Also no one's mentioned BLU, don't attempt to steer the subject somewhere else.

[Doofus]

you clearly havent done this fight prothescar, all your theory goes right out the window when a weakness tp move goes off

and ill say it again, our drg has the bee boss polearm( you guys are really underestimating those weapons), most of the time he will out dmg anything short of the crafted gsword drk, which we also have

BST is NOT going to happen, it is useless and talking about it is retarded, tojil is maybe 5mins of a 35min delve, you guys have had your fun, now try to stop being stupid

[Doofus]

Nobody is suggesting that successful groups drop their strategies, but equipped with the knowledge that not everyone has a Muyingwa kill under their belt or a Ryuonohige in their roster, alternatives should be encouraged

..or need I remind you that not but a few pages ago relic rangers were "an absolute necessity" for these fights?

Relic rangers were required for their WS, we used the delve bow for chapuli, if it wasnt for the ws we wouldnt even look at relics

[Prothescar]

you clearly havent done this fight prothescar, all your theory goes right out the window when a weakness tp move goes off

and ill say it again, our drg has the bee boss polearm( you guys are really underestimating those weapons), most of the time he will out dmg anything short of the crafted gsword drk, which we also have

BST is NOT going to happen, it is useless and talking about it is retarded, tojil is maybe 5mins of a 35min delve, you guys have had your fun, now try to stop being stupid

A weakness TP move going off is the fault of the stunners, or more than just one DD being grossly insufficient causing the fight to drag on too long. Until you understand how the game and its mechanics work, don't attempt to shoot down ideas that are divergent from your own. It's fantastic that you're capable of killing the boss, grats, I'm really happy for you, but shooting down alternative builds and strategies just on the basis of feels is ridiculously idiotic, and I'd venture to say egotistical in a way.

[Ttothesimith]

Fairly easy fight using Manaburn on Tojil

BLM x4, SCH, BRD
BLM x4, SCH, COR
PLD, WHM, RDM, BRD, SCH, SAM

BLMs should have Haoma staff, Suirin obi, Twilight cape, Zodiac ring, INT/ele merits, and a good Meteor nuking set.

-One BLM should have Flare 2
-One BRD should have Ghorn/Daurdable
-One BRD should have 5/5 Foe Sirvente merit and other 5/5 Dirge

Fight during Watersday, BRDs keep Threnody on, and rotate cor, sch, rdm and brd for buffs when needed. BLMs should have Soul Voice 3x Ballad, INT etudes, 2x March, and Foe Sirvente, Magic attack/ Evokers roll, Rainstorm, Haste, Animus Minuo, Refresh2.

-Whenever 6 BLMs can use Meteor, parties should be reformed as that takes off a good chunk of HP. So wildcard/cor 2hr when possible.
-Geo uses Magic evasion down and Magic attack for blms.
-RDM and SCHs stun, also Kaustra and SCH can MB with helix/water5 in between stun recast.
-SAM subs /thf to TA SC with the PLD, solo SC and can SC with a SCH so all the BLMs can Waterja and Water5 MB

BLMs basically spam Water 5, 4, 3, 2, Aspir2, waterga3, MB Waterja whenever recast is ready. Bring meds just in case MP gets low.

[Eanae]

A weakness TP move going off is the fault of the stunners, or more than just one DD being grossly insufficient causing the fight to drag on too long. Until you understand how the game and its mechanics work, don't attempt to shoot down ideas that are divergent from your own. It's fantastic that you're capable of killing the boss, grats, I'm really happy for you, but shooting down alternative builds and strategies just on the basis of feels is ridiculously idiotic, and I'd venture to say egotistical in a way.

If a BST does anywhere near as much damage as even a delve polearm DRG, that DRG should be kicked from linkshell.

[Prothescar]

And if a DRG is outdamaging a well geared DRK, regardless of what weapon the DRG is wearing, they should be kicked from the linkshell. Besides that, no one's made claims of a BST outdamaging a Ryunohige or Bee Polearm DRG. Fabrication doesn't lead to constructive conversations, it leads to irritating ones.

[Julian]

Most parses go something like:

DRK 19~21%
DRG and MNK 17~20%
Rigor MNKs 14%

75-100 is weak to magic, 50-75 piercing, 25-50 slashing, 0-25 blunt, having the drg for piercing and drk for slashing is very beneficial. (12-14k resos, 9k+ stardivers/drakes iirc) Just something to keep in mind for your theorycrafting.

BLU was mentioned a few pages ago the second that DRG was brought up.