Delve

[Gwynplaine]

Does it really seem fair that these drops (easy kills, but only for a handful of linkshells) should be stronger than or equivalent to RME post change? It takes a good LS 45mins to enter and get a drop, or 3 of those runs to buy with Plasm yet a relic takes 1-2months of 2 hours a day in Dynamis, an Empyrean takes shouting for VW to desperately try and get plates, or make a shit ton of gil, and don't even get me started on Mythics.

It doesn't exactly seem fair but that's the inhrerent problem of the concept of R/M/E to begin with. Dynamis relics were the original busy-work content crammed in to get people paying to play a little longer until new content was ready. 9 years later Tanaka was continuing his bad ideas by requiring 250 marrows for some glow lol. So from that perspective it is fair to people who don't want to waste their god damn lives on grinds (which should be every sane human being).

But that's a topic digression that's been beaten to death, anyways how about that Shark kill???

[Byrthnoth]

We downed Tojil on Lakshmi the other day with three beads and then wiped at 3% with our second three beads. Could someone take a look at it and tell us what we're doing wrong?

Setup: (with damage% against Tojil)
- Party 1: MNK x2(18.1%,11.25%-died early), SAM (Koga - 19.7%), COR, BRD, WHM
- Party 2: MNK x2(16.6%-DC for ~two minutes,19.3%), DRG (Ryuno - 14%), COR, BRD, WHM
- Party 3: SCH/BLM x2, RDM/BLM, GEO/WHM x2, PLD
Buffs - Hunter's/Chaos/Fighter's/Rogue's, 2x March, Scherzo, 2x Madrigal, 2x Minuet, Haste, (Boost-STR initially, etc.), Melee use Sushi +1

Basic roles:
- SCH/BLMs stun every TP move and whatever spells look like they're going to get through. One of the Scholars embravas the alliance at about 74% (which is generally when our Marches are falling, so it's good for Stun recast). When he starts resisting Stun, we switch to Light Arts and Accession C4 spam.
- RDM keeps it Dia IIIed (with Light Shot too), Dispelled, Silenced, and Gravitied
- DRG tries to maintain Angon, which is actually kind of reasonable because of the number of COR JA resets
- GEOs maintain MEva down, MAcc up, Eva down, Def down on Tojil. When he essentially becomes immune to our debuffs (Stun and Silence), they switch out the magic spells for Refresh and something else. They use their 2-hours when appropriate

Specifics:
* PLD pull or BRD sack pull Tojil
* First Monks do first Mantra on pull, use Formless Strikes/Hundred Fists
* Second Monks do second Mantra when the first one wears
* After second Mantra, CORs do Wild Card
* If it's still above 75% at this point (which I think it has been every time?) then monks use Formless again if it drops (and HF if it's up)
* Monks cancel Formless at 74%
* Melee it to death ASAP
* Use Random Deal after the fourth Mantra.
* PLD builds some hate and is careful not to die
* When stuns start resisting, melee wipe, PLD tanks, we arise the melee
* After they're unweak, we re-buff them and send them back in
* One time this resulted in a win. Once it resulted in a loss at 3%.

We got 43 Stuns in before he started resisting on our winning run (aka totally resisted everything after that point), which brought him to about 24%. The melee wiped around 22%. Got up and zerged him down. The second run we got him down to 27% before the melee wiped (it was a slower fight). We zerged him down to 3%. I definitely see how 5-NM+Tojil runs are possible, because time is totally not an issue (until we wipe). If we can get to the point where we can kill Tojil in one push, doing 5 NMs and Tojil will be joke-tier. We need to do about 33% more damage, though.

Options to improve, as I see it:
* Don't stun Tyrannical Blow or Pyroclastic Surge - This buys us time and we generally have at least one Yagrush to remove Plague.
* Acc isn't really an issue when it's properly debuffed, but his Attack Down aura is brutal. Does anyone know how to remove this? We nuked it with water while the PLD was holding and that did a close approximation of jack shit.
* Now that we've got one win under our belts, push the monks to get Tojil's H2H. - This blows, because the most effective way to farm Plasm is to 5-NM run Tojil so it's painful to do 45 minutes for 10~11k Plasm at this point in fodder groups.
* Find a second Dragoon so we can permanently maintain Angon? - This could make a large difference.
* Bring me on dancer so I can waltz our sorrows away and use Box/Quickstep. - no not rly

Anyone see anything else?

[Arthars]

gotta do bee next week so.......wondering how people deal with chapuli and fly...

Do the rng simple /ra the chapuli and WS on the flies? Also for 4 anni and 2 yoichi, how do you decide the skillchain order?

if light WS day = which > which ws?
dark WS day = which > which?

i havent review the SC chart so....... im lazy sorry ><

[Lah]

Also Emps take about 2~3 days to do now lol. I got my 85 kangi in like a week and that was just a few hours a day. Ochain took a little longer (2 week? ) because of people still farming it. There is little reason not to have an emp now for a job you call your main before you enter delve.

I wasn't talking 85 emps, I was talking 99 emps (the only ones being boosted AFAIK). I have no emps, and I'm thankful I never wasted time on them either because I have delve weapons that trash them now.

[pugnax179]

To Byrth,

Our setup has been

MNK MNK WAR BRD COR WHM
MNK MNK DRG BRD COR WHM
GEO GEO SCH SCH RDM PLD

Start fight with 6 songs 4 rolls

I suggest using impact at the start of the Tojil fight. We personally have a geo /blm and es impact Tojil.

Our DRG does Angon, spirit surge jump when angon wears off then goes back to using angon every time it is readily available.

All our mnks use hundred fists for the first 25% of the mob too.

[ccl]

Tojil Stuff

Are you using dia ? If melee are well geared, they can most likely use pizza instead of sushi +1. We always had to cancel formless strike. How did your melee die ? Also not sure how good koga was for the 1st 25%, but mura work for this if your sam have it.

[Doofus]

Byrthnoth, everything you listed job/strat wise is pretty much exactly what we do except we use a drk instead of sam. one drg should be ok with angon and 2hr def down. Getting your mnks the h2h will really improve your overall dmg and subsequently your win rate.

Once you get stuns/debuffs/pre-NMs and everything down, the only thing you can do is increase your damage output. turn that horn you got into a gsword and throw a drk at it, and encourage people to get the h2h.

I assume your songs are SV JA? the first 25% should go down a bit quicker than you seem to be indicating unless i read it wrong, could you give us relative times each 25% was taking?

All in all, even with a perfect strat its still possible for shit to hit the fan, maybe you got unlucky

[dejet]

I wasn't talking 85 emps, I was talking 99 emps (the only ones being boosted AFAIK). I have no emps, and I'm thankful I never wasted time on them either because I have delve weapons that trash them now.

whats the new shield that trashes ochain and aegis? yet to see anything that seems at all decent. Hell I do not think iv even seen one.

As for 99 emps, they are not that hard to get even yes they take around 500mil its the 99(2) that are just a pain. I hope SE does something about that.

85- crap easy
90 - crap easy
95 - lulz 150mil if you buy it all
99- 30~300mil if you buy it all
99(2)- a billion plus....

the last stage is the only thing that would hold someone back at all. and even then some people have the gil to blow. I all depends if its worth the time or not tho. delve weps might be so close that it wont even matter or be worth the time of day. Outside harp/shield that is.

[Julian]

We downed Tojil on Lakshmi the other day with three beads and then wiped at 3% with our second three beads. Could someone take a look at it and tell us what we're doing wrong?

Setup: (with damage% against Tojil)
- Party 1: MNK x2(18.1%,11.25%-died early), SAM (Koga - 19.7%), COR, BRD, WHM early death hurts obv, a drk would likely be a slight improvement over the sam but shouldn't be the difference between win and loss. If you can craft a gsword from your first win, then a drk would be way better. Our drk was doing close to 30% of the damage before all the monks got oatixurs.
- Party 2: MNK x2(16.6%-DC for ~two minutes,19.3%), DRG (Ryuno - 14%), COR, BRD, WHM DC hurts a lot, was the DC at the start?
- Party 3: SCH/BLM x2, RDM/BLM, GEO/WHM x2, PLD
Buffs - Hunter's/Chaos/Fighter's/Rogue's, 2x March, Scherzo, 2x Madrigal, 2x Minuet, Haste, (Boost-STR initially, etc.), Melee use Sushi +1 Same thing we do except we have one extra minuet

Basic roles:
- SCH/BLMs stun every TP move and whatever spells look like they're going to get through. One of the Scholars embravas the alliance at about 74% (which is generally when our Marches are falling, so it's good for Stun recast). When he starts resisting Stun, we switch to Light Arts and Accession C4 spam.
- RDM keeps it Dia IIIed (with Light Shot too), Dispelled, Silenced, and Gravitied
- DRG tries to maintain Angon, which is actually kind of reasonable because of the number of COR JA resets
- GEOs maintain MEva down, MAcc up, Eva down, Def down on Tojil. When he essentially becomes immune to our debuffs (Stun and Silence), they switch out the magic spells for Refresh and something else. They use their 2-hours when appropriate

Specifics:
* PLD pull or BRD sack pull Tojil PLD pull, you should be starting fight w/ extended SV songs
* First Monks do first Mantra on pull, use Formless Strikes/Hundred Fists
* Second Monks do second Mantra when the first one wears
* After second Mantra, CORs do Wild Card
* If it's still above 75% at this point (which I think it has been every time?) then monks use Formless again if it drops (and HF if it's up) Looks like this is your problem. Are your monks using rigors? What do their gear sets look like? It should be dropping to at LEAST 85% after 100 fists wears off (assuming no oatixurs) and the rest should drop within another minute or so. Are your other dds engaged at this time? (they should be). Songs shouldn't be wearing off before 60-65%, same with wildcard timing.
* Monks cancel Formless at 74%
* Melee it to death ASAP
* Use Random Deal after the fourth Mantra.
* PLD builds some hate and is careful not to die
* When stuns start resisting, melee wipe, PLD tanks, we arise the melee it really should be dead before this point
* After they're unweak, we re-buff them and send them back in sometimes this works sometimes it doesnt, if it does the weakness move right after you engage, you're probably out of luck. May be worth having the DDs go in pairs? That way they don't all die when weakness goes off.
* One time this resulted in a win. Once it resulted in a loss at 3%.

We got 43 Stuns in before he started resisting on our winning run (aka totally resisted everything after that point), which brought him to about 24%. The melee wiped around 22%. Got up and zerged him down. The second run we got him down to 27% before the melee wiped (it was a slower fight). We zerged him down to 3%. I definitely see how 5-NM+Tojil runs are possible, because time is totally not an issue (until we wipe). If we can get to the point where we can kill Tojil in one push, doing 5 NMs and Tojil will be joke-tier. We need to do about 33% more damage, though. If you're doing the wipe/arise method, you should really be getting it down to at least 10% or so before you start wiping.

Options to improve, as I see it:
* Don't stun Tyrannical Blow or Pyroclastic Surge - This buys us time and we generally have at least one Yagrush to remove Plague.
* Acc isn't really an issue when it's properly debuffed, but his Attack Down aura is brutal. Does anyone know how to remove this? We nuked it with water while the PLD was holding and that did a close approximation of jack shit.
* Now that we've got one win under our belts, push the monks to get Tojil's H2H. - This blows, because the most effective way to farm Plasm is to 5-NM run Tojil so it's painful to do 45 minutes for 10~11k Plasm at this point in fodder groups.
* Find a second Dragoon so we can permanently maintain Angon? - This could make a large difference.
* Bring me on dancer so I can waltz our sorrows away and use Box/Quickstep. - no not rly we had plds sub dnc at the start but this was pointless

Anyone see anything else?

Honestly, it sounds like your monks aren't all properly geared. Just getting them all oatixurs without any other change in gear will probably not guarantee you the win, unless they're not even using rigors right now for some reason?

[Doofus]

god damn lol, how much are cinders on your server that its 300m

[Byrthnoth]

It looks like the first 25% was about 2.5 minutes, actually.

Here is the damage graph:

Spoiler: show

Looking at the damage graph, I bet buffs are wearing and not being replaced. Check out the slope at the end vs. Before the wipe.

[Lah]

95 - lulz 150mil if you buy it all
99- 30~300mil if you buy it all

The problem is they're not as common as you seem to think they are. There are 500 for sale on Leviathan atm, and 378 of them are from one person, who probably gave up trying to reach 1500 due to supply. VW is dead on Leviathan, and I can't see why it wouldn't be elsewhere.

[Renzy]

@ Byrth

The setup which works for us is;

MNK MNK DRK(crafted GS) WHM COR BRD
MNK MNK DRG(Ryunohige) WHM COR BRD
GEO GEO RDM PLD SCH SCH


Why is it your songs are wearing off at 74%? Our BRDs Nightingale/Troubadour on the Raptor at the start and don't use them again until Tojil.

As the PLD is on the way with Tojil we have both of our BRDs SV/Nightingale/Troubadour and rotate through the parties, usually by the time Tojil arrives at camp we're ready to go, if there's a slight delay for whatever reason the PLD can twilight sac it in the tunnel.
Our MNKs, with a Mantra rotation, will Hundred Fists/Formless Strikes Tojil down from 100 to 74, they cancel Formless Strikes and the DRG applies Angon at 74%. At this point we have the BRDs and CORs run in and we have them Wild Card the DDs and BRDs.
Even if they don't reset 2hrs, all JA's are reset so BRDs can quickly reapply songs if required, the DRG can apply another Angon and the DD's get to have their JA's for the full zerg.

Your strat looks good, you have the correct GEO debuffs, songs and rolls it might just be a case of saving Nightingale/Troubadour.
What was the DD's accuracy like?

[Byrthnoth]

DD Accuracy is near-capped for the entire thing 90-97% in the winning parse. It looks to me like we have a Buff/Debuff wear-off issue about 5-6 minutes in to the fight when rolls start to drop and N/T songs from before the fight start falling.

We probably need to start our rotation before songs start falling if we don't already do that, and our CORs need to rotate back to their starting parties after the initial swap if they don't do that already as well.

[Fwahm]

I wasn't talking 85 emps, I was talking 99 emps (the only ones being boosted AFAIK). I have no emps, and I'm thankful I never wasted time on them either because I have delve weapons that trash them now.

Except that R/E/Ms are going to be stronger than delve weapons after they're boosted, not weaker.

[Therin]

Starting to cap out on drops now, 20+ Horns on our mule which can't be crafted due to lack of Scarletite which has now reached 20m on Odin, any other groups having the same issue?

First world problems.

[ccl]

DD Accuracy is near-capped for the entire thing 90-97% in the winning parse.

If you can keep buff up should switch to pizza+1!

[Therin]

horn is 100% drop rate.... ingot is 1-5% at best >.>

ingot going for about 30 atm on odin, only buyable from /tells none on AH that can be bought with 15M (i tried)

edit: nvm its 20m in ah now

still no one selling horns tho in AH

That's a good thing. If a given server has 3-4 LSes spamming Tojil almost daily, I could see the Horns dropping to <5M a pop as people spam for other gear and Plasm and Airlixir +2s. That means that the cost of a Nagan is basically whatever you can find an S.Ingot for, and technically, you can get one of those for free (given joining enough VW groups once people realize they HAVE to do it again).

[Lah]

Except that R/E/Ms are going to be stronger than delve weapons after they're boosted, not weaker.

I was under the impression that Mythics would be by far, Empyreans only due to AM and relics not so.

[Fwahm]

Based on the stats they've released, all three swords they revealed are better than Buramenk'ah if you count hidden effects/aftermath.