Delve

[Helel]

PLD should be /DNC regardless. No real point in going /WAR. I can land box step on every NM, including raptor, with no madrigal/hunter's as long as I swap to full accuracy. No haste samba for melees obviously, but there's no reason not to box step the mobs. The only time it'd be impossible is when PLD is holding matama.

[dasva]

Threnody if you want, the benefit, if there is any, will be so small that you won't notice either way. You shouldn't ever be in a situation without languor so its a pointless debate.

You could argue the opposite though. I mean you could you shouldn't be in a situation where threnody isn't available so debating the merits of langour (or focus really) is pointless. Can't really take 2 effects that do basically the same thing and arbitrarily assign one a must have and the other useless status. At the very least might allow the geo to throw up something random.

[Fake]

Except that Languor seems to take the mob from having an extremely high resist rate to having very good land rate on its own. I'd really like to evidence for them doing basically the same thing, because my experience with languor's magic evasion effect far exceeds the supposed benefits of it. If there is some testing to this effect then sure, I'll alter my opinion as evidence dictates, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case (my brd was able to land finale consistently from a DD party, before I would resist almost every time). I certainly don't have any figures to contribute, but its not like I'm guessing my WS average either.

I realise theorising is a big part of how better strats are formed, but kurma will resist light and dark based spells a lot without geo spells on it, so its kind of a moot point anyway. You don't want to be burning troub to land dark threnody that close to tojil and geo doesn't offer any other debuffs/buffs that make it worth the tradeoff to risk it (for the setup you will be using and given kurma's offensive ability). People tried to force the BST utility issue when it was never going to be worthwhile, let alone preferred.

[fantasticdan]

I wonder if languor is bugged or if it's really supposed to be that powerful? Going by peoples anecdotes in this thread, it's something crazy like -100 meva or more, which seems way out of line for the numbers for geos other debuffs.

[Byrthnoth]

Keep in mind that it doesn't really take much MAcc to move from a shitty land rate to a good one:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Resist

20% to 50% is 30 Macc. 50% to 95% is 90 MAcc.

[Damane]

Except that Languor seems to take the mob from having an extremely high resist rate to having very good land rate on its own. I'd really like to evidence for them doing basically the same thing, because my experience with languor's magic evasion effect far exceeds the supposed benefits of it. If there is some testing to this effect then sure, I'll alter my opinion as evidence dictates, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case (my brd was able to land finale consistently from a DD party, before I would resist almost every time). I certainly don't have any figures to contribute, but its not like I'm guessing my WS average either.

I realise theorising is a big part of how better strats are formed, but kurma will resist light and dark based spells a lot without geo spells on it, so its kind of a moot point anyway. You don't want to be burning troub to land dark threnody that close to tojil and geo doesn't offer any other debuffs/buffs that make it worth the tradeoff to risk it (for the setup you will be using and given kurma's offensive ability). People tried to force the BST utility issue when it was never going to be worthwhile, let alone preferred.

languar and focus are scarry spells. hell indi-focus alone is scarry in itself. I cant debuff anything that is tough on geo/rdm with just my m.acc spells, I put indi-focus up and can do pritty much anything I want with no native enfeebling skill. focus and languar have some strong potency behind them and I am not sure if they are % based or strait stats like precision and torpor are now. I guess I could go test focus out on something EM, like cast 100 time sleep with dark m.acc stave, then with only indi-focus and then with both and once with none the 2. I dont know, never was good at testing, how would someone approach a test like this?

[dasva]

languar and focus are scarry spells. hell indi-focus alone is scarry in itself. I cant debuff anything that is tough on geo/rdm with just my m.acc spells, I put indi-focus up and can do pritty much anything I want with no native enfeebling skill. focus and languar have some strong potency behind them and I am not sure if they are % based or strait stats like precision and torpor are now. I guess I could go test focus out on something EM, like cast 100 time sleep with dark m.acc stave, then with only indi-focus and then with both and once with none the 2. I dont know, never was good at testing, how would someone approach a test like this?

Sorta how you are thinking... however no need to have macc staff at the start and sample size required for percise amounts would be a tad higher... and if it is high as people are claiming you might need something higher natural resist like maybe try castng stone on said worm. As said if no langour is 20% and with it's 95% that's implying -120 meva... which is pretty dang strong especially compared to it's other debuff values and it being an incomplete job. Actually lvling it now so I can test lol

[dasva]

People tried to force the BST utility issue when it was never going to be worthwhile, let alone preferred.

That's your opinion. I'd like see how anything a 2nd geo or maybe even 2nd durable can do would beat -25% evasion and +10% dmg dealt -10% dt to 1 pt as well as whatever random tiny dmg and maybe /dnc debuffs it can do on the bee.

[Fake]

Keep in mind that it doesn't really take much MAcc to move from a shitty land rate to a good one:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Resist

20% to 50% is 30 Macc. 50% to 95% is 90 MAcc.

2 different rdms on tojil runs, first rdm has pretty much the best macc gear in the game minus the stuff from delve bosses - can't land dispel reliably on kurma without geo spells up. second rdm has pretty much just AH gear and a few pieces of AF3+2, no magian staves, NQ chatoyant staff etc, lands dispel with pretty much capped macc when focus/languor are up. Like I said, I'm open to whatever testing reveals but it appears to make a larger difference than any amount of gear can.

As for bst, everything has already been said and simply restating the base arguement hasn't changed anything. Also how can you compare it to a second GEO when it requires to be in a DD party (or adds yet another layer of rotating it in).

[dasva]

As for bst, everything has already been said and simply restating the base arguement hasn't changed anything. Also how can you compare it to a second GEO when it requires to be in a DD party (or adds yet another layer of rotating it in).

I compare it because if you want to go just by debuffs which is basically all 1 geo is doing it can do the same -def down while doing way more -eva. But yeah after I though about it probably more takes the place of 2nd brd especially if you want it's dmg to mean anything and edited that in.

[Bored]

We will be doing 3 Tojil runs Tonight, 2 with 3,4,5 beaded and 1 with t1 only. Will hopefully post the first NA wins on Siren.

[Fwahm]

Edit: wish I could delete posts.

[Fwahm]

2 different rdms on tojil runs, first rdm has pretty much the best macc gear in the game minus the stuff from delve bosses - can't land dispel reliably on kurma without geo spells up. second rdm has pretty much just AH gear and a few pieces of AF3+2, no magian staves, NQ chatoyant staff etc, lands dispel with pretty much capped macc when focus/languor are up. Like I said, I'm open to whatever testing reveals but it appears to make a larger difference than any amount of gear can.

As for bst, everything has already been said and simply restating the base arguement hasn't changed anything. Also how can you compare it to a second GEO when it requires to be in a DD party (or adds yet another layer of rotating it in).

This is against my experiences on Kurma. On RDM with 492 enfeebling and +72 MACC, I can't land Dispel for crap on Kurma even with both Geo MACC and MEVA- applied. I need to throw on Klimaform with a SCH casting Voidstorm on me to land it reliably.

And yes, the GEO has capped skills.

[shepardG]

SStttuuutter step!

[Arthars]

Dealing with Kurma, am i missing something here? Kinda wondering how ppl bring him down so fast in Delve with no blms? Our strat outside includes blms to MB but obviously they wont be there inside. Ppl talking 5min zergs but how really? We've tried but had only 1 geo present took it to 50% in 5min with 4mnk but resist on harden shell, stomp kept going off slowed it way down. Is the key just to keep shell off, and reapply buffs constantly?
If someone might post how they do it inside delve with the mnk setup way id appreciate it.
Currently outside we do pt1 whm brd geo mnk drk sch/rdm for enthunder. Mnk and drk Sc light for the blms. Pt2. Whm sch/rdm brd mnk mnk geo, and pt3 blm blm brd cor Thf, 6th random job. We just have mnk drk sc, blms mb, the other mnk pt just melees to raise enthunder up. Usually takes 12-15m. We try to dispel shell but its 50/50. Geos do mag eva down, magic acc up, defense/eva down.
Just kinda baffled why its taking so long to kill.

the usual delve 5 NM + boss run setup is:
PLD WHM GEO GEO SCH SCH
MNK MNK DRG WHM BRD COR
MNK MNK DRK WHM BRD COR

if you have another senbaak(which is easy to find now anyway) you can just swap the drg for 2nd drk

1 thing i noticed, and maybe already noticed by people way earlier in this thread, but to back it up and further reinforce the theory, if you WS or damage it during Kurma's TP usage, you will land double damage

not telling you to "time" it cos u may end up lowering your DPS waiting for it, but usually when kurma do WSs, he do it 3-4 times a row and thats a good period to spam ur WS

anyway, even if you fight it normally, you will still always land a few double damage WS with fast TP building so thats why embrava/1 march/1 mad/2 minuet is enough to tear it in 5 mins either way

1 SCH's embrava is enough to last a kurma fight. and yea keep 4 songs up always

the other SCH embrava mnks before tojil and then both sch can focus on stun, they wont have time to embrava during tojil fights anyway

also for doods attempting shark and believing thunder works to remove resist aura, did you all try enthunder the melees? prolly way more accumulated thunder damage than depending on elemental magic/quick draws

[noodles355]

if you have another senbaak(which is easy to find now anyway) you can just swap the drg for 2nd drk

Why would you swap angon out for a 2nd senbaak?

[Mafai]

Tried Shark again with:

SAM SAM DRK WHM COR BRD
SAM SAM DRG WHM COR BRD
GEO GEO SCH SCH SCH PLD

Cut the RDM for Perp Enthunder. It breaks the shield quicker. Under 25% it can put the shield up anytime it wants (seems unstunnable). Wiped at 8%, we full wiped at 16% and fully recovered (its HP was visible) and it decided to open with Tidal Guillotine and 1 shot 3 of our DD's that were running in from the front. Managed to get it down to 8% before timing out. Under 25% seems piercing weak (DRG was hitting hard) and my Shoha's seemed to fall of. Pretty sure we had it if 3x DD's didn't die during the final zerg attempt on pull.

[Arthars]

Why would you swap angon out for a 2nd senbaak?

angon is not really gamebreaking for tojil if you have enough oatxitars and DRG usually sucked in damage because of lack of boss weapon (most people)

a 2nd senbaak can make up all the lost in DPS from a mediocre DRG and angon during the slash phase

blood weapon + souleater first 25% is madness too

[Doofus]

I disagree completely, the angon and 2hr def down helps all 6 DD and i dont think a drk can make that up.

Also shark is a fucking bitch under 25%, starting to see why theres been so many 10 and 15% tries

[Bored]

1st attempt loss on tojil. had links, weakened atks at start from wivres, shit was hectic, and didnt do good. trying 2nd time now