Delve

[Dotsudoku]

Hence my confusion. I swear it was down, but attack down was going strong again at ~70%

[Slycer]

We did.. something.. that dropped the aura below 50% (in the 50% to 25% range). I don't know what it was, but we had one monk using light rune, and the other using fire, I think (was Darksday, if that's still a consideration). I'd have to check with them to confirm, they're afk now. Also worth noting that it can use Incinerating Lahar even with aura off once it's below 50% HP, though not nearly as commonly as with aura on.

[Prothescar]

Hmm... puzzling. Annoying how much more obfuscated this one is compared to the shark and bee

[Slycer]

Hence my confusion. I swear it was down, but attack down was going strong again at ~70%

The aura goes up coincidentally with Blistering Roar, which is the next move he uses after each 25%, but doesn't necessarily happen immediately at 74/49/etc. Maybe he was down a couple % below 75 before he used roar?

[ccl]

Most likely like shark, we can get it down 15%ish below the 75% - 50% - 25% mark before it use verve=>mahyem combo.

[Cairthenn]

So, it turns out that Volcanic Stasis is full dispel. Not sure if it's conal or AoE, but a bunch of us suddenly having literally no buffs was quite the run-killer.

[Arthars]

What % was it at? It's possible that 100->75 is wind, 74 -> 50 is Fire, 49->25 or 24->0 is Water with some fourth element filling the last gap. Could also be that you're misremembering though

first 100% aura and 75%'s aura was down

all i see is water tier 1, it was from the geo who has experience (and won) shark, so he was testing on tojil too to see if water will bring down tojil

it worked for the first aura (100%'s roar) so he told the 2nd geo to spam water too, and 2nd aura (75%'s roar) went down too

however it did not go down at the 50 and 25%'s roar (not sure if they still carry on doing it due to aura down for only a few moment before next roar as dd was tearing it down so fast)

every NM's aura move will only be its first WS after the 25% threshold, so yes it wont be immediate but will be the first WS after the 25% marks (74,49,24%)

[Jem]

The aura goes up coincidentally with Blistering Roar, which is the next move he uses after each 25%, but doesn't necessarily happen immediately at 74/49/etc. Maybe he was down a couple % below 75 before he used roar?

The strange thing is Tojil will always Roar immediately on pull before chasing you. Shark doesn't Verve until you've got it to camp and started hitting it (Usually around ~97%)

I guess the logical explanation would be that Tojil has regain and the Shark does not.

So, it turns out that Volcanic Stasis is full dispel. Not sure if it's conal or AoE, but a bunch of us suddenly having literally no buffs was quite the run-killer.

This is what I initially said about removing Tojil's aura. Removing it isn't really that beneficial because the replacement move is still a huge fuck you with the tactics being used. Or at least I've never seen it Stasis with Aura up.

[Slycer]

If you Stun stasis, the massive attack down aura being gone is a huge boost. His moves (every one of them) are slow enough to be stunned by name via the chat log with the appropriate filters. Serration is not a big deal since it's single target, but you can just Stun almost everything anyway with the increased kill speed because of the removed aura (it's worth skipping Surge if you can to buy some extra Stuns especially if you find yourself riding the timer too hard).

Tojil doesn't have very much, if any, regain. We've had bad experiences in the past where one person was holding for an extended period of time and it was hardly using any TP moves.

[Shenrien]

first 100% aura and 75%'s aura was down

all i see is water tier 1, it was from the geo who has experience (and won) shark, so he was testing on tojil too to see if water will bring down tojil

it worked for the first aura (100%'s roar) so he told the 2nd geo to spam water too, and 2nd aura (75%'s roar) went down too

however it did not go down at the 50 and 25%'s roar (not sure if they still carry on doing it due to aura down for only a few moment before next roar as dd was tearing it down so fast)

every NM's aura move will only be its first WS after the 25% threshold, so yes it wont be immediate but will be the first WS after the 25% marks (74,49,24%)

See this doesn't make sense to me, we brought a MNK/RUN one run when the reverberation thing was discovered and tried the skill chains at 100-75% and enwater at the same %, and it didn't do shit, only when someone mentioned wind damage that we decieded to do a demo run because our shell has a hard time kill it (17% lastnight, started resisting stun 100%) so we're looking to get any advantage we can, and dropping the -33% atk aura would do wonders for our kill speed.

[Dotsudoku]

This is what I initially said about removing Tojil's aura. Removing it isn't really that beneficial because the replacement move is still a huge fuck you with the tactics being used. Or at least I've never seen it Stasis with Aura up.

Dropping the aura seems to grant a pretty sharp increase in Tojil's damage taken from all sources(outside the removal of attack down), which can be indirectly critical for groups going for an initial clear.

[Slycer]

Aura or not, are you stunning everything? If so, you could buy yourself extra stuns by avoiding stunning Pyroclastic Surge, at the very least. It doesn't do much damage, and it doesn't do anything that impacts kill speed. I thought it would be difficult or unreliable to stun via chat log, but with filters up it really did work (without any 3P tool advantage). Obviously a poorly timed lag spike will make you miss a Stun, but in that case you probably would have missed it either way. If you're able to Stun individual TP moves, dropping the aura buys you even more time since you can then skip Stunning Serration and/or Tyrannical Blow, if you want (just need to get the Plague off fast).

[Fake]

If you have a GEO using bolster at the appropriate time with macc and meva, even without silence, you get about 8.5-9.5mins before you start to see resists anyway. No real reason not to stun everything.

[Arthars]

goups on odin (pugs) r killing it before abi songs end....

when i am on sch (i do not have thunder/mag acc staff) i finished all my charges and then SP and stun, and usually its dead before my SP ends....

still no resist on my end so i would say if your fight goes beyond 8-9 mins, you are walking on a very thin line of win. or fail

its good to merit focalization because when ur finished with ur charges and uses SP, you can use alacrity + focalization to make sure your stuns dont get resist on that late stage.....

we only used 2 sch stuns, and 2 geos

it is prefered to use INDI-languor on odin pugs because if the GEO dont die (they shouldnt with decent DT setup) then there is 0 downtime for languor than you using Geo-languor (downtime between luopan destruction, may end up having a stun resist late stage)

there is time to cast storm and klima alternately between each stun

if you have 3 sch to stun, then you dont need SP, but like i said, 2 SCH stun, using SP between when charges r all down is better if you merited focalization. also having 3 stunner = having the risk of 1 more person being retarded or sucky in gears

[Slycer]

Guys, we've had the discussion about stunning everything for about 100 pages now, we know it's possible given sufficient kill speed. I'm referencing Shen's comment specifically where it sounds like he needs an extra 1-2 minutes without resists if he can't otherwise pick up his kill speed.

Agree on Focalization, though (if you use TR at boss), and also make sure your SCH use Klimaform/Thunderstorm if they have time as it gets late in the battle.

Also, please keep looking into the aura thing if it's something you care about. I definitely don't want to stamp that discussion out as it's the first interesting thing that's happened in this thread in a while.

[Fake]

The problem with your suggestion is not the theory, its putting it into practice. Lag spikes occur on whms/cors/brds healing also, if you start stipulating that they only stun everything while weakened (in the case a lahar gets off) but selectively stunning normally, you open up the margin on human error and reduce your margin on any lag spikes. If you have stunners good enough with connections that will allow it, co-ordinating themselves on vent etc then maybe it will work.

The simplest way is just to figure out why your damage output isn't high enough to kill it in ~8mins and fix that. NNI/plasm mnks + 1-2 DRG can kill it in under 6mins if buffs aren't allowed to fall, everything is stunned and people don't sit on tp after 75%. This provides a comfortable margin on DDs being lazy or a couple of lahars going off or some deaths. You definitely can pick up kill speed so that should be the focus of any group failing to kill before resists begin.

Like I said, if you have the stunners to do what you are suggesting then go for it (but 2 stunners with 0 lag issues that are that good are far harder to come by than 6 mediocore but intelligently geared DDs). If not then its a logical fallacy because the longer the fight goes on the higher the chance human error or latency will impact you.

[Jem]

If you have the stunners capable of stunning everything but you cannot kill it quick enough then buying extra stunning time is not really your issue like Fake said. It is entirely on your DD's and/or buffers.

There is zero excuses for not being able to kill it before you hit the resist wall other than someone sucks. Either your buffers/debuffers or your DD's are severely holding you back. Possibly a combination of the two. The leeway on the DPS check is massive even with just stuff like Rigors/Bereavers so there's not really an excuse for hitting the resist wall and it still being alive.

The hardest and most important part is the stunning. That should be your main/only reason for failing. That might sound harsh but it's true.


I mean yeah, by all means you can selectively stun to buy you more time. It could be a viable solution if you can't kill it fast enough. It's just a far easier solution would be to make your DDs and/or buffers pull their weight.

[dasva]

It really depends on the person in the slot. In the end sucky players are going to suck and it's far easier to improve your game regardless of the slot or 1-2 good players you know then the average player that just plays. You'd be suprised how few people there on some servers that actually read up on game mechanics and gearing... and even the ones that do will often just latch onto 1 persons guide like it's some holy grail without actually knowing the reasons for what that person does (or why they shouldn't). So I'd say improve anywhere you can cause from experience you are going to have to deal with a bit of suck

[Jem]

Alternatively, if you can figure out to reliably remove the aura then you can always zerg > wipe at low % > kill rest of it using non-zerg tactics and removing aura.

It would require you to bead it though to give you extra time on the kill but could at least get your DD's better gear for future zergs which could be the difference maker.



And maybe it's just that our LS is full of asshats but if anybody can't/won't pull their weight on a certain job then they don't come that job. Like if we know someone sucks as DD/WHM/BRD/whatever then they flat out cannot come that job. If they suck on multiple jobs then they generally get replaced permanently or only get into the ally if there's no other choice.

[Doofus]

And maybe it's just that our LS is full of asshats but if anybody can't/won't pull their weight on a certain job then they don't come that job. Like if we know someone sucks as DD/WHM/BRD/whatever then they flat out cannot come that job. If they suck on multiple jobs then they generally get replaced permanently or only get into the ally if there's no other choice.

pretty much this, people who refuse to improve or adapt are useless, wasting everyone elses time.