Sneaky Pro-lifers trying to prosecute women for stillbirths and miscarriages.

**test123** · 2013-05-28 13:44

According to the March of Dimes, methamphetamine crosses the placenta easily and directly affects the developing fetus. Like tobacco, speed constricts blood vessels, raising blood pressure and depriving the placenta of circulation, which the baby needs to grow properly and withstand the stress of labor and birth. Meth use in pregnancy makes preterm labor and stillbirth more likely.

**quannum** · 2013-05-28 14:12

keep gubment outta mah yooterus

pro-life libertarians have some self-examination to do, too bad they won't.

**Helm** · 2013-05-28 14:13

Stop being so shitty, Test.

In before that's Bane's job. Yeah. None of that. ` - . )

**kuronosan** · 2013-05-28 14:16

Originally Posted by test123

According to the March of Dimes, methamphetamine crosses the placenta easily and directly affects the developing fetus. Like tobacco, speed constricts blood vessels, raising blood pressure and depriving the placenta of circulation, which the baby needs to grow properly and withstand the stress of labor and birth. Meth use in pregnancy makes preterm labor and stillbirth more likely.

Jesus, are you terribad at citing sources or something? Thank you for the information.

That still doesn't change the fact that a woman addicted to a drug is NOT the same thing as a man deliberately punching the fuck out of someone to induce death. You need to prove intent. You can't. Simple as that.

edit: Here's one that supports what you said:
http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/6/515.long

**Dotsudoku** · 2013-05-28 14:19

How does Test's head not explode with such conflicting ideologies

**test123** · 2013-05-28 14:23

Intent or not, causing a death due to indifference or negligence is a crime. It is called murder in the third degree.

btw: I am not taking sides in this case. I am bringing up arguments.

**Plow** · 2013-05-28 14:25

Test is actually right here.

Far left is screaming about punishing people for stillbirths and miscarriages, while the right is literally just trying to put drunk/methed/etc. pregnancy on par with drunk/methed/etc. driving.

Really, it's one thing for your Neosutras to say people shouldn't have to use condoms/birth control in order to avoid pregnancy from sex, it's quite another to say once you're pregnant you can just flush your system with household chemicals.

**kuronosan** · 2013-05-28 14:25

Originally Posted by test123

Intent or not, causing a death due to indifference or negligence is a crime. It is called murder in the third degree.

btw: I am taking sides in this case. I am bringing up arguments.

Your terrible grammar notwithstanding, you are trying to equate fetal death by brutality to fetal death by gross negligence. One is easy to prove. The other isn't.

**Plow** · 2013-05-28 14:27

Originally Posted by kuronosan

Your terrible grammar notwithstanding, you are trying to equate fetal death by brutality to fetal death by gross negligence. One is easy to prove. The other isn't.

Really? You don't think doing meth while 7 months pregnant is gross negligence?

Really?!

**quannum** · 2013-05-28 14:41

neglecting your own body isn't a crime (it shouldn't be to libertarians anyway)

**archibaldcrane** · 2013-05-28 14:48

Originally Posted by Plow

Really? You don't think doing meth while 7 months pregnant is gross negligence?

Really?!

It's definitely negligence, but not necessarily the cause of this miscarriage.

**archibaldcrane** · 2013-05-28 14:50

Originally Posted by Plow

Really, it's one thing for your Neosutras to say people shouldn't have to use condoms/birth control in order to avoid pregnancy from sex, it's quite another to say once you're pregnant you can just flush your system with household chemicals.

what if you flush it with alcohol?

**Plow** · 2013-05-28 15:10

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

what if you flush it with alcohol?

I keep a bottle of everclear around purely for cleaning purposes, so it's just another household chemical to me lol.

**kuronosan** · 2013-05-28 15:44

Originally Posted by Plow

Really? You don't think doing meth while 7 months pregnant is gross negligence?

Really?!

Come on, Plow. Shirley you can't be this logically-ignorant.

**Plow** · 2013-05-28 15:49

ic what I seem to have missed, I guess you're saying gross negligence doesn't matter if it's hard to prove it caused the death?

**hey** · 2013-05-28 16:11

Originally Posted by kuronosan

Situation 1 (Direct effect): Man drinks until drunk. Man drives. While driving, he runs down a woman. The drinking directly caused this.
Situation 2 (Direct effect): Man punches pregnant woman. Man starves woman. As a result, woman has miscarriage. This abuse directly caused this.
Situation 3 (Indirect effect): Woman uses drugs. Woman has miscarriage. It cannot be PROVEN that the drugs caused this as drugs have DIFFERENT effects on different people. The psychological effects (dependency, withdrawal) and physical (toothrot, allopecia) could be considered universal but the physiological (hormones, signaling pathways) cannot be solidly proven without research.

How exactly do you prove the first two wouldn't have happened anyway?

**test123** · 2013-05-28 16:22

Originally Posted by kuronosan

you are trying to equate fetal death by brutality to fetal death by gross negligence

No. But in both cases there is murder.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-05-28 16:34

Doing meth while pregnant is stupid. I do believe that she deserves to suffer for taking drug abuse to the next level of stupid, but I also think that she would have been much more likely to abort the child (instead of letting her pregnancy go to the 7th month while still doing meth) if Mississippi didn't have such draconian abortion laws.

The prevalence of stillborns in the US is 1/115 (including potential drug-induced stillborns). Given the side-effects of the drug, it is not entirely unreasonable to blame the meth for her stillborn. However, the majority of stillborns do not have a known cause. It is possible that meth caused her stillborn, but it is also possible that something else caused it. Maybe she leaned to the left a little too long one day and cut off blood flow to the baby, killing it without realizing it. There are a million different ways that you could accidentally kill your unborn child, and that's the angle that you'd have to argue the case from.

As for the mother, I'd arrest her on drug charges if there were any grounds for it and prosecute her to the maximum extent of the law for her stupidity. Still, how was this arrest even made? Can the hospital just call the police up and report someone after taking their blood for other purposes and doing tests? Did she get belligerent and punch a doctor or something?

**test123** · 2013-05-28 16:41

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

Still, how was this arrest even made?

When a meth head with facial sores and rotten teeth dumps a dead fetus on a hospital floor people will notice. A medical examination of the fetus is my guess.

**Plow** · 2013-05-28 16:44

Pretty much everyone involved in caring for children and their parents is required to report anything meaningfully suspicious.

As to whether abortion laws came into play, I doubt it. There's some shaming in mississippi's laws, but it's not exceedingly hard to get one there.

You might be surprised just how many people, regardless of their opinion on what legality should be, would never consider an abortion for themselves.

Also, filling your body with disgusting concoctions of household chemicals while pregnant isn't normal, but...

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