Super Smash Bros.

[Ratatapa]

Viq, you have to keep in mind that not everyone plays Smash seriously in a tournament-ish setting (no items, no crazy stages, no low tier characters).

However, people shouldn't be so ignorant as to not care about Smash not being at the biggest tournament ever (EVO) or the largest main Smash tournament ever (APEX). Especially after EVO now (including the fiasco), it's a defining moment for how Sakurai will plan out his characters now more than ever (despite the fact that he dislikes his game in a tournament setting).

Most of the big heads at Nintendo no only reversed a decision to allow Smash to be played at EVO 2013, but they also proceeded to watch from their corporate offices. I can assure you guys that Ice Climbers will be added without a doubt in this iteration because of that fact (the character brought the most hype to the tournament). Other characters will be re-balanced for sure as well beyond whatever was planned.

I personally don't like watching people play

I wanna play it myself

[Sho]

I personally don't like watching people play

I wanna play it myself

Ahh you missed what I mean. You don't have to watch it persay.

I mean just know what's going on with your new game (and the surrounding communities, both casual and competitive) as it's winding down to being released.

We are in an age where a business like Nintendo cannot just turn a blind eye to the competitive scene anymore.

[Krandor]

I seriously doubt he even read your post Sho.

[Sho]

Is a shame. Oh well.

[Ratatapa]

I seriously doubt he even read your post Sho.

I read it the quote wasn't needed but I read it

[Elcura]

Ahh you missed what I mean. You don't have to watch it persay.

I mean just know what's going on with your new game (and the surrounding communities, both casual and competitive) as it's winding down to being released.

We are in an age where a business like Nintendo cannot just turn a blind eye to the competitive scene anymore.

Isn't this topic about the new game? I mean, the fact people are reading this means they want to know what's happening with the new game. Your problem is they don't know what's going on with an old game at a tournament. As well as some community stuff, but what you guys are preaching is completely out of left field. Why do people need to care about all of that to give a shit about Smash? Why do people need a community to enjoy a game or series? Do or should the hardcore and casual care about what each other wants? I don't think so. The only thing they both have to care about is just Smash, and they do so it's all good. The hardcore do their thing to promote Smash, the casuals do their thing.

Nintendo can certainly turn their eye away from the competitive scene. Optimistically I would say they wouldn't anymore but my gut certainly tells me otherwise. I'd love Smash to be recognized more as a competitive game, because that's what I loved about Melee, but Brawl proved they didn't want to make the game more competitive so I have doubts that Smash U will be better (aside from taking out obviously abusive features like tripping). I don't have much faith in Nintendo or even Sakurai, but I like Smash too much to simply give up on it now so we'll see.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ice Climbers again, because I always liked to play them ever since learning about desyncs (I thought they fucking sucked before that), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if development wasn't swayed by EVO. Ice Climbers appearing again would almost definitely be because they had planned to include them anyway.

[Lucavi]

I'd like to see some proof that Nintendo watched EVO in any capacity. Its not that I doubt your words, its just that I have 0 faith in Nintendo whatsoever when it comes to anything that benefits anyone who isn't themselves. I've never seen them put players first for any project or IP.

Trust me, I would LOVE to be wrong on this. It would make my night to see some tweet or PR from Nintendo congratulating anyone that had anything to do with EVO. I'm just not just being a negative Nancy on this, I just have no faith in that company when it comes to the consumer. They still refuse to unlock regions.

[Deader2818]

wut

[Sho]

Isn't this topic about the new game? I mean, the fact people are reading this means they want to know what's happening with the new game. Your problem is they don't know what's going on with an old game at a tournament. As well as some community stuff, but what you guys are preaching is completely out of left field. Why do people need to care about all of that to give a shit about Smash? Why do people need a community to enjoy a game or series? Do or should the hardcore and casual care about what each other wants? I don't think so. The only thing they both have to care about is just Smash, and they do so it's all good. The hardcore do their thing to promote Smash, the casuals do their thing.

Nintendo can certainly turn their eye away from the competitive scene. Optimistically I would say they wouldn't anymore but my gut certainly tells me otherwise. I'd love Smash to be recognized more as a competitive game, because that's what I loved about Melee, but Brawl proved they didn't want to make the game more competitive so I have doubts that Smash U will be better (aside from taking out obviously abusive features like tripping). I don't have much faith in Nintendo or even Sakurai, but I like Smash too much to simply give up on it now so we'll see.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ice Climbers again, because I always liked to play them ever since learning about desyncs (I thought they fucking sucked before that), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if development wasn't swayed by EVO. Ice Climbers appearing again would almost definitely be because they had planned to include them anyway.

Not really my problem as I'm not affected either way by how people take what I said (I play both competitive and causal Smash). I also can understand to the complete casual that it won't matter either way. However, I was explaining how people who are faithful fans to the series should be aware of what's going on with the series itself. The fact that it is a new iteration of a series that in the news lends even more reasoning behind it-- People see a new iteration of a game and they want to look back and see how the other games fared in comparison. This entire EVO Fiasco and resolution just so happened to be smack dab in the middle of the game in question being in development. Nintendo dropped a ball and missed a huge opportunity to not only market their new game, but solidify their motto that they are always for their most devoted Nintendo fans first.

One again, they cannot turn a blind eye to the competitive scene anymore, it simply doesn't work like that anymore. Not in this age and generation of gaming. Especially after all of the negative press Microsoft took after the DRM shit, no one in the gaming industry is trying to raise the ire of the gamers right now in any avenue. The news almost immediately made the rounds through all of the top gaming sites once it broke. On top of that, once they found out the cause they did it for, it gave them even more reason to reverse their decision (who would continue to say no despite a charitable drive in their game's name?)

I can assure you that they will be swayed by the decision after EVO passed if it already wasn't swayed or a solidified addition. Essentially you are saying Sakurai could say no to a character that brought hype to the biggest even the 12 year old game has ever had. The character could have been complete garbage and the same effect would have happened.

I'd like to see some proof that Nintendo watched EVO in any capacity. Its not that I doubt your words, its just that I have 0 faith in Nintendo whatsoever when it comes to anything that benefits anyone who isn't themselves. I've never seen them put players first for any project or IP.

Trust me, I would LOVE to be wrong on this. It would make my night to see some tweet or PR from Nintendo congratulating anyone that had anything to do with EVO. I'm just not just being a negative Nancy on this, I just have no faith in that company when it comes to the consumer. They still refuse to unlock regions.

You don't really need visual proof of Nintendo watching it, as it should have been implied not only from a PR position but also from a legal position as well. They have to watch the stream and on going footage to know how they will create their further press regarding the streaming of their intellectual properties on a competitive level from now on. That means all of the top brass had to have watched it, or had their top PR watch it and proceed to discuss it with them (they'd be shown footage regardless). Triforce (of Empire Arcadia) recently tweeted that he got an interview with Reggie Fils Aime regarding the competitive scene and Nintendo and that he will release it as soon as his publisher allows. This happened immediately after the guy got off the phone with Nintendo when the entire crisis happened that ended with them overturning their decision. There's really no way they just looked the other way when the tournament went down.

Unlocking regions really have nothing to do with how they will go forward handling the competitive scene, but I can see your doubts.

[Mrbeansman]

So as a person who's only ever seen Smash as a party game to play with friends can I ask why Brawl is shunned by the competitive community? Is it really bitching about wave dashing and its other Ilk? I don't see how a removal of mechanics that pretty much promoted shelfing characters that couldn't exploit them can be put in a positive light in a competitive environment.

[Krandor]

So as a person who's only ever seen Smash as a party game to play with friends can I ask why Brawl is shunned by the competitive community? Is it really bitching about wave dashing and its other Ilk? I don't see how a removal of mechanics that pretty much promoted shelfing characters that couldn't exploit them can be put in a positive light in a competitive environment.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tripping

[Sho]

Tripping as Krandor said. Also low hitstun, lack of wavedashing and lack of L cancelling.

[Lucavi]

You don't really need visual proof of Nintendo watching it, as it should have been implied not only from a PR position but also from a legal position as well. They have to watch the stream and on going footage to know how they will create their further press regarding the streaming of their intellectual properties on a competitive level from now on. That means all of the top brass had to have watched it, or had their top PR watch it and proceed to discuss it with them (they'd be shown footage regardless). Triforce (of Empire Arcadia) recently tweeted that he got an interview with Reggie Fils Aime regarding the competitive scene and Nintendo and that he will release it as soon as his publisher allows. This happened immediately after the guy got off the phone with Nintendo when the entire crisis happened that ended with them overturning their decision. There's really no way they just looked the other way when the tournament went down.

Unlocking regions really have nothing to do with how they will go forward handling the competitive scene, but I can see your doubts.

I didn't get that implication. I got the implication that Nintendo backed down because they realized just how loud of a shitstorm the internet can create over things it doesn't like. Nothing more. I didn't catch a whiff of anything that would remotely count as an intention to support any competitive community, merely to allow this one thing to exist so that the internet doesn't pick up e-pitchforks and torches.

That said, I'm glad that Triforce has something to share; I'd love to hear something from Reggie saying anything relevant to the situation at hand. I don't trust Nintendo at all for things like this, but I'm certainly happy to hear something, even if its just a breadcrumb.

[Sho]

I didn't get that implication. I got the implication that Nintendo backed down because they realized just how loud of a shitstorm the internet can create over things it doesn't like. Nothing more. I didn't catch a whiff of anything that would remotely count as an intention to support any competitive community, merely to allow this one thing to exist so that the internet doesn't pick up e-pitchforks and torches.

That said, I'm glad that Triforce has something to share; I'd love to hear something from Reggie saying anything relevant to the situation at hand. I don't trust Nintendo at all for things like this, but I'm certainly happy to hear something, even if its just a breadcrumb.

Backlash on the Internet directly stem from the gamers who speak the loudest. It was expedited by the people in the community that picked up the phone and called their contacts at Nintendo. Triforce wasn't the only person, but a number of people did so. It was actually an on going shit storm of about 11 hours, but nothing got done til a few people made some calls. It was a collective effort of many things on top of their own created shit storm.

[Lucavi]

If it results in something big (aside from EVO, of which stands on its own merits; I was one of the hundreds of thousands of spectators) then I'll be ecstatic. I just want to hear some word from Nintendo, even if its PR bullshit. Even PR-speak would be a new additional for them.

[Elcura]

Yeah, I just doubt how much Nintendo actually cares. Will be nice if they do but I'm not holding my breath. I'll gladly eat my words if I'm wrong (about this and Smash U in general).

Tripping as Krandor said. Also low hitstun, lack of wavedashing and lack of L cancelling.

There's also how easy it is to grab the ledge (Melee vs Brawl is like night and day) and how powerful DI is, lack of free shield (can't control strength/size/direction), multiple air dodges. As the melee tourny proved getting back is essentially a huge part of the game, but Brawl makes the issue pretty trivial.

[Deadgye]

Brawl is more mindgames and trades. The longest combo I've seen in brawl is a 3-hit jab combo. It's just a completely different game. I also find it boring to watch 95% of the time. I'd almost go as far as saying it shouldn't even be compared to melee.

I don't see how a removal of mechanics that pretty much promoted shelfing characters that couldn't exploit them can be put in a positive light in a competitive environment.

Some of the characters that can exploit wavedashing best are actually crap characters. Luigi for example. I don't think a single character has been shelved because they can't utilize wavedashing as well as other characters, it's usually just that everything about them is crap. Like Pichu.

[Akiyama]

Brawl is more mindgames and trades. The longest combo I've seen in brawl is a 3-hit jab combo. It's just a completely different game. I also find it boring to watch 95% of the time. I'd almost go as far as saying it shouldn't even be compared to melee.


Some of the characters that can exploit wavedashing best are actually crap characters. Luigi for example. I don't think a single character has been shelved because they can't utilize wavedashing as well as other characters, it's usually just that everything about them is crap. Like Pichu.

You take that back! Pichu adorables you to death.

[Qeomash]

There's also how easy it is to grab the ledge (Melee vs Brawl is like night and day)

I personally liked that it was easier to grab a ledge in Brawl--though I admit is maybe a little too easy. I'd be happy with the edge range of Melee if they keep the ability to grab backwards. Tripping, however, was the stupidest addition.

I hope that they either do post release balance updates and/or allow easy community balancing.

[Deadgye]

I'd be happy with the edge range of Melee if they keep the ability to grab backwards.

That's one of the things I, as a melee player, want gone. A decent amount of the melee cast can technically achieve it with their up-b in melee too, but it's one of those things that just made recovery too easy in brawl, imo. Also everyone's magnets are too strong.

You take that back! Pichu adorables you to death.

Pichu actually has one of the best spot dodges in the game. Spot dodge and down smash. If I'm not playing my main and I'm sandbagging I might lose by accident lol.