Beta 3 impressions and general discussion

[Elcura]

Certain skills do more damage when done from the side or the rear.

You can fight with your eyes closed! TAB TARGETING POWER!

[Spider-Dan]

Certain skills do more damage when done from the side or the rear.

What does this have to do with camera manipulation?

If you lock the target then you literally don't even need to touch your camera controls.

[Elcura]

What does this have to do with camera manipulation?

If you lock the target then you literally don't even need to touch your camera controls.

Then your movement suffers, and if you can't see your opponent then you can't position correctly or prepare for what they might be doing.

Step yo game up.

[Lokus]

What does this have to do with camera manipulation?

If you lock the target then you literally don't even need to touch your camera controls.

What the shit, I never even mentioned camera manipulation but since you want to go that route.

Locking onto your target hinders your freedom of movement. This game doesn't have character collision either so locking on doesn't let you use that to your advantage.

[Spider-Dan]

If you think max speed is the only measure for competent action then sure, you can say that. However, it isn't.

It's the only meaningful distinction in this comparison.

Err, controller can access those commands just as fast.

This is factually false.

KB can access 36 commands instantly. Having to change pages to put your desired action on the screen (so you can then execute it) is not the same thing as instant.

If you think you aren't prone to making mistakes

Pretty sure you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. How many people have mentioned issues with accidentally executing actions when they tried to change target before letting go of a trigger? Controller has FAR more input overlap than PC.

However, I can easily tap R1 to access new actions just as quickly.

In the time it takes you to change a page, a PC user already executed their action.

You don't just get more camera precision, you get more control over all, unless you can move, use WS, and turn the camera at the same time on a KB, because I can tell you I can do that on controller real easy.

For the third time: if you think the kind of claw grip needed to access thumbsticks, dpad, face buttons, and triggers all at the same time is "easy" then WASD+arrows+hotbar is just as easy on a kb.

Not to mention if all your critical actions aren't on the main bar then you're retarded.

So if this game has more than 8 "critical actions" on any job, what happens to controller users?

KB gets 12 one-button hotbar actions right off the top. Controller gets zero.
KB has 36 button-combo hotbar actions. Controller has 8.
Oh, but controller can more precisely aim the camera. Whee!

KB only is clumsy as fuck, but if you can rock default config KB then go for it. I'll be performing better with custom controller. Hell, even if you had custom keyboard I'd still be better with controller. The only way KB can beat controller without even thinking about it is with a mouse. Honestly I don't know why you'd play this game without using it, it's like using only the left side of the controller. Baffling.

Speaking on a simple, empirical basis, the only "advantage" controller has is the ability to run at less than full speed or move the camera at less than full speed. KB has over 4 times as many instantly available actions and much less input overlap.

All input methods (save something like Nostromo+Naga) are clumsy if you're trying to do everything at once. Trying to claim that it's "easy" do so on a controller doesn't work on anyone that's ever held one.

[Spider-Dan]

Then your movement suffers, and if you can't see your opponent then you can't position correctly or prepare for what they might be doing.

Step yo game up.

What the shit, I never even mentioned camera manipulation but since you want to go that route.

Locking onto your target hinders your freedom of movement. This game doesn't have character collision either so locking on doesn't let you use that to your advantage.

"Hey guys, what's this 'F' key do?"

Is there any point to using the mouse other than camera manipulation? Please do explain.

[ArchDizzle]

The superior master race is the one that doesn't argue with SpiderDan.

[Elcura]

It's the only meaningful distinction in this comparison.

Accuracy, son.

This is factually false.

KB can access 36 commands instantly. Having to change pages to put your desired action on the screen (so you can then execute it) is not the same thing as instant.

No, instant is pressing 1, 2, 3 or 4 etc to use an ability, like how having Toggle and pressing a face button is instant. Having to hold control or alt and press a button is not instant unless you use a macro, program or are a robot. Considering the time it takes to reposition your fingers to hold this modifiers down is similar to the time it takes to tap R1 then press a face button.

The only advantage keyboard hotbar holds is the lack of memorization needed since you can see it all on screen.

Pretty sure you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. How many people have mentioned issues with accidentally executing actions when they tried to change target before letting go of a trigger? Controller has FAR more input overlap than PC.

But it is also far more comfortable for performing multiple tasks, so if your tasks overlap then naturally your controls might. And I already covered mistakes, most of them are due to inexperience with how controls operate in FFXIV.

In the time it takes you to change a page, a PC user already executed their action.

Considering the 1.5-2.5 second cooldown, I think both users have more than enough time to line up their next action. Are you saying it takes more than 1.5 seconds to switch pages? Are you saying it's less than the moment you press R1? Again, refer to modifiers.

For the third time: if you think the kind of claw grip needed to access thumbsticks, dpad, face buttons, and triggers all at the same time is "easy" then WASD+arrows+hotbar is just as easy on a kb.

Claw grip on controller to access dpad actions is literally just sliding two fingers into new positions for a moment before switching back. Not difficult for anyone experienced in using a controller and far more effective than the cluster fuck a keyboard user has to go through to use WASD, Camera, Alt, Tab, CTRL, number buttons, FKeys, arrows keys and numpad. You say controllers need extra fingers? KB needs an extra fucking arm.

So if this game has more than 8 "critical actions" on any job, what happens to controller users?

You organise your actions? I know, difficult to comprehend.

KB gets 12 one-button hotbar actions right off the top. Controller gets zero.

Because it takes so long to tap or hold L2 and R2 and press a button. Oh wait it doesn't. And let's not forget in toggle or mixed mode you can access all commands.

KB has 36 button-combo hotbar actions. Controller has 8.

Yeah, 8 times 2. So, 16. A quick tap gives you another 16, another quick tap for another 16 and so on 8 times bitch.

Oh, but controller can more precisely aim the camera. Whee!

Among other things, yes.

Speaking on a simple, empirical basis, the only "advantage" controller has is the ability to run at less than full speed or move the camera at less than full speed. KB has over 4 times as many instantly available actions and much less input overlap.

Wrong, but I've already covered this so I'm not going over it again.

All input methods (save something like Nostromo+Naga) are clumsy if you're trying to do everything at once. Trying to claim that it's "easy" do so on a controller doesn't work on anyone that's ever held one.

No, KB/M isn't clumsy at all when multitasking. It goes like this, KB/M > Controller > KB > M. Thank you, good night.

[Elcura]

"Hey guys, what's this 'F' key do?"

Is there any point to using the mouse other than camera manipulation? Please do explain.

...Wow, you really don't get how to use a mouse, do you?

Sorry guys, I fucked up (again). I'll leave this one alone now.

[Spider-Dan]

Accuracy, son.

If aiming the camera within 90 degrees of your target is too difficult on kb, then sure, it's not for you.

No, instant is pressing 1, 2, 3 or 4 etc to use an ability, like how having Toggle and pressing a face button is instant.

...except that in toggle mode, you lose instant access to direct target selection, jump, confirm, and cancel.

Having to hold control or alt and press a button is not instant unless you use a macro, program or are a robot.

By that standard, controller can never have "instant" access to hotbar, basic face button, and dpad target selection simultaneously. Q.E.D.

Considering the time it takes to reposition your fingers to hold this modifiers down is similar to the time it takes to tap R1 then press a face button.

KB user can still push enter/esc/numpad instantly at any time. You're sacrificing that for toggle mode.

But it is also far more comfortable for performing multiple tasks,

That's your opinion.

Considering the 1.5-2.5 second cooldown, I think both users have more than enough time to line up their next action.

1) not everything is on GCD
2) if speed doesn't matter, why even have this discussion?

Claw grip on controller to access dpad actions is literally just sliding two fingers into new positions for a moment before switching back.

Every keyboard action is "just sliding fingers into new positions."

Yeah, 8 times 2. So, 16.

Fair point, I skipped that.

It goes like this, KB/M > Controller > KB > M.

As long as you care more about precise camera positioning than speed of available actions, sure.

...Wow, you really don't get how to use a mouse, do you?

Do you even know what the F key does? Here's a hint: use it with the (remappable) "move camera behind you" button and you have an entire extra free hand to input commands or select targets.

[Elcura]

You win, I submit, argument over. Congratulations. Next topic please~

[shaddix]

...Wow, you really don't get how to use a mouse, do you?

Sorry guys, I fucked up (again). I'll leave this one alone now.

Please expound. I watched a video where this guy was saying he only had strafe keys on the KB and used the mouse for forward movement and reversing is useless. I played a little rift and wow but never at a high level so I am quite interested in the optimal control method.

[SK_FFXI]

Spider-Dan, what's your optimal config like in FFXIV? What buttons do you remap from default? I wanna switch to KB-only this weekend since I actually liked how FFXI played.

[Jeryhn]

The superior master race is the one that doesn't argue with SpiderDan.

^ This, a million times over.

[Churchill]

Keyboard only is by far the most accurate and fastest method of playing Tab-target MMO's

[Spider-Dan]

Spider-Dan, what's your optimal config like in FFXIV? What buttons do you remap from default? I wanna switch to KB-only this weekend since I actually liked how FFXI played.

My setup is not optimized right now; more like familiarized. I currently use numpad for moving, arrows for camera, WASD for targeting, but WASD moving+arrow camera is most optimal (based on hotkey access). I rarely played PvP in XI (and obviously never in XIV), and I played a lot in first-person mode (gasp!) simply because it's the only* mode in which you can (easily) circle-strafe and continue to face the enemy sans lockon, while keeping a hand free for targeting or actions (this is 8 years of XI THF training at work). The only real drawback was first-person turn speed which is (somewhat) resolvable by quick viewchange->down->viewchange.

My current remap is here.

*yes, I know you can do this with a gaming mouse or other non-standard input devices

[Headspace]

I'm wondering how the economy is going to work in this game since it seems a lot of gear is obtained via quests and better gear through dungeons, etc. What can crafting do since it probably won't make any return on synths at low levels.

[Kachiko]

I'm wondering how the economy is going to work in this game since it seems a lot of gear is obtained via quests and better gear through dungeons, etc. What can crafting do since it probably won't make any return on synths at low levels.

It's likely that crafting will be the better gear options, for the jobs you level after exhausting the 3 city path leveling options, for however high they go. At least in the early levels, you could buy gear from the independent armor merchants, but we don't know how far up that system goes, so it might come into play earlier.

[Gulkeeva]

I'm wondering how the economy is going to work in this game since it seems a lot of gear is obtained via quests and better gear through dungeons, etc. What can crafting do since it probably won't make any return on synths at low levels.

Well considering everyone and their botting grandma on live servers will have probably HQ crafting tools, and rank 50 every craft, should be cheap for everything, even low lvl HQ gear.

Gear goes like this (from what I can tell)

Awesome gear ← → crappy gear
Green icon underlined like gear icon → crafted white sparkle icon gear → pink icon gear → your usual crap gear from quests
(I heard there was even rare'er gear but I've not seen it myself or any pics of it on NA/JP forums aka epic quality you could say.)

Rare to find, takes effort to get → get from quests, usual crap people craft

If you want the best crafting tools, you'll want a crafter to HQ them, as you will not get them anywhere else. Considering legacy server will have master crafters everywhere, should be easy/cheap to get one as the market/auction house will most likely be flooded with them in time. (Only HQ crafted items to be worth much will be Lv 50ish or close items as there is only the green underliend icon whatever dungeon gear that is better).

P.S. You can mix craft abilities to greatly boost your chances for HQ for a really good chance to HQ gear, this is where I get my assumption, as I lvled Woodworking+leather working to near Lv 25 in phase2, and was able to produce a 1 out of 10ish craft HQ chance almost with little effort, its nowhere as hard as 1.0 HQ ways, you can really work your craft well in 2.0)

[Spider-Dan]

I still don't understand what's supposed to happen to the melded gear market. If all gear is now essentially BoE, materia prices and especially melded gear prices are going to go WAY down.