Texas senator Wendy Davis filibusters against abortion bill

[Ksandra]

That's what matters. Someone can believe that abortions are the work of the devil, and so long as they're not yelling that at others and restricting others' options, I couldn't care less. I start caring when they attempt to govern the rest of the world with their opinions as a guide.

I agree to a point, only because of my first paragraph isn't based on religious belief, so much as when is it really a baby. Most want to say once it's out it's finally a baby. I disagree. As stated above around 6 months the baby is basically just waiting to come out. And I think it would be wrong as a society to allow someone who is say 39 weeks in (40 is considered full term) to abort the baby just because it hasn't happened to come out yet. And this is, again, without religion speaking. I just don't consider "out of stomach" a good indicator.

I should note, this is in regards to normal pregnancies. In any situation where the mother and/or baby is in danger then those are case by case special circumstances.

[Aksannyi]

Thank you, Ksandra, for saying my basic thoughts on the matter. I remember feeling the first ever kick from my first son at about 15.5 weeks. That was when pregnancy was real to me. It stopped being "this thing" to "my child." I'm not saying all women feel that way, but I firmly believe that abortion should not be legal past the first trimester, unless in extenuating circumstances such as health problems for either the mother or the child, and yes, that does include birth defects because I understand some people would not want to deal with that (though I would not personally abort, I respect that many others would).

I also firmly believe that instead of practically encouraging abortion - and we do, I know someone who refuses to go on the pill because she can just have an abortion, she's had five - we should be educating early on safe sex. Not abstinence because that shit doesn't work and it's been proven. Safe. Sex. We are a nation of prudes and we are afraid of anything with too much sex. Wrong answer. We need to get our collective mindset away from being offended by the mere thought that people have sex (and fucking enjoy it) and realize that sex happens but unplanned pregnancies don't have to. It's not going to fix everything, I realize this, because you're always going to have the schools without that funding and the kids who just don't want to listen, and yes, abortion should remain legal and accessible to all women.

However, I strongly believe that 20 weeks is too late. The line is really starting to blur between "bunch of cells" and "baby" at that point and really, no cut off is going to be good enough for the strong pro-lifers who believe that life begins at conception. I have no firm answer for when life begins. I used to believe conception (but I'm not sure I still do) and I would never personally have an abortion but I still support choice.

And I wish that hardcore pro-lifers would understand that by choosing to be pro-choice doesn't mean I want to go kill a bunch of unborn babies, far from it. In fact, I encourage other avenues, just that I understand that there are some circumstances when one can not proceed with a pregnancy. I wish people would take the decision a lot less lightly. The only good reason I can say that a woman should have until 20 weeks is so that she can strongly consider her other options prior to abortion and really take the time to sit down and think about it before just rushing off to the clinic as soon as she's done peeing on a stick. But even then, that's not a good enough argument to me to keep the 20 week thing, because no one can interfere with people's thought (or lack thereof) and free will.

There's no easy solution to the debate here. Abortion should remain legal and accessible to all women. I just wish fiercely that the women's collective were better educated on the choices they have, both before and after sex. For the truly ignorant, nothing is going to change, I realize that, but we can't keep pretending that teaching abstinence is going to keep our teenagers from getting knocked up.

Long response. Abortion is complex, I have complex views.

[Acevalefor]

Perhaps you believe it's improbable because your impression of what pregnancies are relies on a few stereotypes—namely, mood swings and weird cravings, the two things focused upon in every comedy series ever. You did mention other things, and I would not want to imply that such cravings and mood swings are merely fantastical constructs, so I don't mean to say that you're completely wrong to do so. Rather, I wish to point out that a woman may experience some of these things, or as far as they can tell, none of them. Stereotypes aren't universally applicable. There are many reasons, including whether they're taking birth control or not, pre-existing medical conditions (especially noteworthy considering our brain's limited capacity to detect multiple sources of pain), their weight (as mentioned), and so on.

I have 5 children of my own, 13 nieces and nephews, many friends with children and a close friend that is a midwife. I did not mean to stereotype, but rather convey my experience with women and pregnancy. The only case that I know of was a friend's 16 year-old niece that just plain didn't know her body at all and was too young to understand pregnancy to any great extent. She was barrel racing 1 week prior to delivering a 6 lb. boy. Even that one doesn't help to shed any light on how it happens beyond a woman's lack of knowledge of her body and it's functions. Even if obesity is a factor, it still takes a certain amount of ignorance of your own body.

Regarding abortion, you and I agree completely. I believe every fetus should have the chance at life but do not believe it is any one person's place to tell another what they should or should not do with their baby/fetus/parasite, whatever you want to call it.

[Ksandra]

I have 5 children of my own, 13 nieces and nephews,

YOUR FAMILY NEEDS TO STOP BREEDING

[Tyche]

I forgot the precise number, but I think it was something like less than 2% of abortions are carried out after 20 weeks.

[Kohan]

I have 5 children of my own, 13 nieces and nephews, many friends with children and a close friend that is a midwife. I did not mean to stereotype, but rather convey my experience with women and pregnancy.

I was fairly sure I recalled your talking about such things on the forum before, so I wanted to specify that I didn't think you merely believed in stereotypes. Of course, we can go further down the road as to why people wouldn't notice—and a huge part of the potentially responsible factors (e.g., pre-existing conditions) disproportionately affect the poor, which is why abortion rights are always considered hugely important, and why discouragement against them is potentially discriminatory. Sometimes openly so, especially if we get into "slut shaming" land, a narrow mindset that's more common against the lesser-educated.

Regarding abortion, you and I agree completely. I believe every fetus should have the chance at life but do not believe it is any one person's place to tell another what they should or should not do with their baby/fetus/parasite, whatever you want to call it.

Agreed completely. If anyone truly loves children and is a part of the anti-choice camp, please consider leaving that and campaigning instead for better foster conditions and more friendly adoption options. Otherwise, extremely sad stories like these will continue to happen. (I think someone linked that elsewhere on BG, but it's relevant here regardless.)

[Acevalefor]

YOUR FAMILY NEEDS TO STOP BREEDING

Haha. We are playing the odds. My wife has 3 siblings, I have 4 sisters, and I have...um...several cousins...I would have to stop and count. Between all of us, we are bound to win the lottery some day and in case we don't, we will pass it on to our children and hope that one of them wins the lottery and takes care of us all in our old age.

Really though, I would much rather people like us populate the US than the Duggers. Too bad our propagation doesn't stop the Duggers from having kids.

[Ksandra]

I do agree that the abortion fight has largely been the cause of neglecting what is ultimately the heart of the matter. Education and resources to all on safe sex. The more that practice safe sex, the less likely they would ever need to have to make this decision in the first place. Not to say that it could limit abortions completely (accidents happen, and not everyone will follow because feels good man). But I think that's a much better step in the right direction.

Equally, kohan brought up something I have been meaning to make a thread about. Issues on adoption. The adoption/foster system imo is a complete mess. I've often wondered how people would go about fixing it. It took my friends about three years and tons of money to adopt their current child (they have one natural born, it's something they've always wanted to do, though.) I tip my hat to them for going through it, but really, adopting isn't easy at all and I think that society has never bothered to take a look at how bad it's set up. Equally, how foster care is the best way to create tons of completely unstable adults.

[Acevalefor]

I was fairly sure I recalled your talking about such things on the forum before, so I wanted to specify that I didn't think you merely believed in stereotypes. Of course, we can go further down the road as to why people wouldn't notice—and a huge part of the potentially responsible factors (e.g., pre-existing conditions) disproportionately affect the poor, which is why abortion rights are always considered hugely important, and why discouragement against them is potentially discriminatory. Sometimes openly so, especially if we get into "slut shaming" land, a narrow mindset that's more common against the lesser-educated.



Agreed completely. If anyone truly loves children and is a part of the anti-choice camp, please consider leaving that and campaigning instead for better foster conditions and more friendly adoption options. Otherwise, extremely sad stories like these will continue to happen. (I think someone linked that elsewhere on BG, but it's relevant here regardless.)

My story goes further in that my own father was disowned for being gay after he tried for years to live up to his parents' expectations. I talked about that more in another thread, but it has largely influenced my thoughts and beliefs regarding gay couples, marriage, child rearing and many other issues that are used against gay couples. The influence has been far reaching in that it taught me to never believe I am better than anyone else and their right to a long and happy life is just as great as mine regardless of their race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, (insert the rest of the equal opportunity factors here).

The story you linked is truly heat breaking. I remember reading a story similar to that and was appalled that anyone would ever think it is not only acceptable, but right to treat someone like that. They genuinely believe they are helping the child by ridiculing him and his "gay behavior" and that that ridicule will make him change. It is also one of the tactics used at "scared straight" gay conversion camps. The worst part? Parents' rejection of their children's sexual orientation coupled with ridicule by their peers is a leading factor in suicides in gay teens.

[Kohan]

Equally, how foster care is the best way to create tons of completely unstable adults.

Let's not even get into talking about the utterly fucking horrifying situations that a lot of foster kids can be put through (although, granted, I did link some rather saddening stories already, but they're not even the most horrifying).

Unrelated to the friend of mine whom I'd mentioned earlier, I was professionally associated with a couple that cared for foster children. "Professionally associated" sounds a bit cold, though—I knew them for years and went to their house a good number of times, so I'd call them friends.

Not only did they have their own biological kids (who had grown up and moved out), but they continued to specifically foster the children that no one else would take, including a black baby born of a union between their crack-addicted mother and her brother. Their physical and emotional problems were enormous, but they never took that child nor any others back and said, "I don't want to deal with this." I'd like to see some hardcore anti-choice people step up and do that shit. Maybe then they wouldn't have the deserved stigma of only caring about babies until they're born.

[BerenTebogo]

Sticking with my skinny girls.

None of this surprise pregnancy shit for me. No way.

Related: I watched the livestream for 2 hours. I think this is a hugely important issue and I think there needs to be a huge push to get this attention before the second session.

No more blueberry muffins are fattening shit while this is on the floor.

[Plow]

Let's not even get into talking about the utterly fucking horrifying situations that a lot of foster kids can be put through (although, granted, I did link some rather saddening stories already, but they're not even the most horrifying).

Unrelated to the friend of mine whom I'd mentioned earlier, I was professionally associated with a couple that cared for foster children. "Professionally associated" sounds a bit cold, though—I knew them for years and went to their house a good number of times, so I'd call them friends.

Not only did they have their own biological kids (who had grown up and moved out), but they continued to specifically foster the children that no one else would take, including a black baby born of a union between their crack-addicted mother and her brother. Their physical and emotional problems were enormous, but they never took that child nor any others back and said, "I don't want to deal with this." I'd like to see some hardcore anti-choice people step up and do that shit. Maybe then they wouldn't have the deserved stigma of only caring about babies until they're born.

There are sooooo many parents waiting for newborns to adopt it's just silly. The big problem isn't in the kind of adoption that's an option alongside abortion, it's the people that keep their kids and end up or find out later that they can't manage them, and they end up in "temporary" care.

[hey]

But to be fair, I believe any fetus deserves a right to life, but that is my religion talking, and I've always done my best to try and separate laws from religion in my world thinking. 20 weeks means you just started to gain weight, and as Kohan said not every woman experiences mood swings/cravings etc. Those that are overweight often have irregular periods as well.

If it can survive on its own, or with the help of someone who wants to help it, then great. Killing unborn babies when they could easily survive is a bit silly. But no one should ever be forced to support another life they don't care about at significant expense to their self.

[ringthree]

Sticking with my skinny girls.

None of this surprise pregnancy shit for me. No way.

Related: I watched the livestream for 2 hours. I think this is a hugely important issue and I think there needs to be a huge push to get this attention before the second session.

No more blueberry muffins are fattening shit while this is on the floor.

Sath, as usual, is awesome.

[ringthree]

If it can survive on its own, or with the help of someone who wants to help it, then great. Killing unborn babies when they could easily survive is a bit silly. But no one should ever be forced to support another life they don't care about at significant expense to their self.

Honestly, that is the most rational and pragmatic position. The problem is that the point at which a life is viable outside of the womb varies based on development and level of intervention. For those against abortion, it is far more easy to just conclude that women are incubators after conception because it avoids all of that really hard "thinking".

I just think the simple response to that simple thinking is to reverse the position, and make the claim of autonomy and bodily integrity being absolute in the face of absolutist claims from anti-abortionists. It is far easier to defend this position philosophically, and it carries wait from the political right which claims to love their individualist morality and Ayn Rand so much.

[Kaslo]

I love how people always like to throw the "adoption card" around on abortion, as if we have a really good adoption system. The adoption system needs an overhaul badly.

[Plow]

we can technically keep a sperm alive and make it into a baby, that's actually not a very good measurement of much (unless you're a super strict religious nut in which case killing sperm is bad mmmkay too)

[Plow]

I love how people always like to throw the "adoption card" around on abortion, as if we have a really good adoption system. The adoption system needs an overhaul badly.

Again, we do have a pretty damn solid system for adoption as a direct alternative to abortion. It's the kids that get taken away from their parents we have a really bad problem taking care of.

[Ksandra]

Again, we do have a pretty damn solid system for adoption as a direct alternative to abortion.

not really

[archibaldcrane]

Again, we do have a pretty damn solid system for adoption as a direct alternative to abortion.

*if you are white parents who don't want their baby and it's under 6 months old