Wisconsin passes abortion ban

[Helm]

Yet you feel it's fine to preach at everyone else with your wonderful knowledge of female biology and apparently superior moral position? Kudos.

[Plow]

Again, you can argue against Todd Akin all you like, your canned responses do not apply to what I'm saying.

[Helm]

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RESPOND SO IMMA SAY CANNED RESPONSES TO EVERYTHING. LOLOLOL.

Fuck. You're just awful.

[AidenCarby]

Nothing applies to what you're saying, you're delusional and nothing gets through to you.

[Plow]

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RESPOND SO IMMA SAY CANNED RESPONSES TO EVERYTHING. LOLOLOL.

Fuck. You're just awful.

"If you want to be able to get an abortion, you should be proactive and take steps to prevent pregnancy and catch it as soon as possible if it happens."


"You're crazy abortion is not bad because I said so and you're preaching about the female body but know absolutely nothing... NOW RESPOND TO MY ARGUMENTS OMG"


No, sorry, you're retarded.

[AidenCarby]

There it is!

[Correction]

the vast, vast majority of abortions could have been prevented through personal responsibility.

Citation Needed.

It's also strange that in Plow's world, having an abortion done falls outside the realm of 'personal responsibility.'

[Niiro]

Hey, the only way to fix people that lack personal responsibility is to give them a child.

It's like a problem that solves itself!

[Plow]

Citation Needed.

It's also strange that in Plow's world, having an abortion done falls outside the realm of 'personal responsibility.'

If you believe that abortion is an emergency backup last resort, then yes, having an abortion is the result of irresponsibility. This is not a hard concept to grasp, even if you disagree.

[Plow]

Further, if you believe that the responsible choice is to do what it takes to give the child the best life possible, even if that's via adoption, then, again, it's quite obvious how just killing it instead is shrugging off responsibility.


Again, these are personal beliefs and not shit you get to argue against by claiming that your opinions are fact.

[Correction]

If you believe that abortion is an emergency backup last resort, then yes, having an abortion is the result of irresponsibility. This is not a hard concept to grasp, even if you disagree.

Please back up your argument that the vast, vast majority of abortions could have been prevented through this vaguely defined 'personal responsibility' you speak of.

[Plow]

Please back up your argument that the vast, vast majority of abortions could have been prevented through this vaguely defined 'personal responsibility' you speak of.

Sure. Check out the success rates of birth control pills, especially when combined with condoms and shit. The defense rests.

[archibaldcrane]

If you believe that abortion is an emergency backup last resort, then yes, having an abortion is the result of irresponsibility. This is not a hard concept to grasp, even if you disagree.

So if you do everything right, use condoms and BC and still get pregnant and your backup last resort is getting an abortion... How is doing so irresponsible?

I completely do not understand this argument at all.

[kuronosan]

I don't agree with abortion in the slightest, mostly due to it being a gateway to irresponsible adolescents absolving themselves of sexual responsibility.

However, as an aspiring doctor and because I understand that accidents happen, I also acknowledge that you CANNOT apply universal rules of conduct to a general populace because there are ALWAYS extenuating circumstances.

As far as pulling out goes, I'll address it this way:

You have sex with a woman. You flex your kegels when you're about to come and you pull out your penis. You instead come on her chest, back, face, mouth, whatever. Being that there is NO sperm in precome (unless you have previously ejaculated within 1-2 days and have NOT urinated) unless you literally come inside the woman (even partially) there is ZERO chance of pregnancy. ZERO. The failure rates of pulling out all come from guys who have absolutely no control and/or wait until the absolute last second to pull out. Most guys will pull out and then jerk off for the money shot. If this is not you, you're DOING IT WRONG.

Second - there is approximately a 72-hour window beginning before and ending after ovulation where sex will undoubtedly result in fertilization. Depending on when this fertilization takes place, the woman may or may not end up pregnant.

Now. This is during a NORMAL cycle. Several factors, including stress, sleep, emotional state, medication, diet, and sex itself influence when ovulation takes place. After ovulation the period normally arrives 14 days later. This means that women can have extended periods because menstruation does NOT occur unless ovulation has first occurred (how else do you think birth control works?).

Now that you know all of that, you can easily see why some women have no clue that they are pregnant until 2-3 months in. Implantation bleeding and bloody tinges can easily be confused for light periods (something that you would have no clue of if you either weren't a woman or were not in a long-term relationship with one) and so women often don't take the necessary precautions to prevent further development at that point.

Having said all of this, I do not agree with abortions as a "get-out-of-jail-free" tactic, but I do agree that it is not only not my choice to make, there is often not a lot that can be done to prevent pregnancy if it's going to happen and you've taken every precaution.

You should *never* force someone to carry and raise a baby just because you see fit to pass judgment on their responsibility. Sometimes you are totally responsible and still end up with the short end of a stick. Sometimes you're a woman walking down the road and somebody comes by and rapes you at the right time and there you have it. You should not force people to live with these consequences when it wasn't their fault. Like I said, accidents happen.

I think what is perhaps the most intriguing facet of your argument is that you cling to it and call others stupid because you have been consistently shown to be wrong, Plow. No matter what approach people use, your response is always the same. That tells me you don't have a message; you have a voice that cries to be heard.

You can keep calling me an idiot and a retard and whatever you want to. I may have difficult assembling my thoughts but this is one subject I can frankly say you are outclassed in.

[Correction]

Sure. Check out the success rates of birth control pills. The defense rests.

That isn't very scientific. 784,507 abortions in 2009 is the last number I see we have for abortion statistics in the United States. You have to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of these women chose abortion over other methods of birth control and that they did it because they lack a sense of personal responsibility.

What you are doing is projecting your own notion of personal responsibility and as a result judging 800,000 women as irresponsible. There is also the implicit assumption that giving birth to a child that cannot be cared for is more responsible than taking the medical route necessary post-fertilization to not become a parent in the first place. This is very arguable.

[Tyche]

OBGYN Kuro.

On a sort-of-related note, we have an OBGyN here named Richard Good. Not making that up.

[Plow]

So if you do everything right, use condoms and BC and still get pregnant and your backup last resort is getting an abortion... How is doing so irresponsible?

I completely do not understand this argument at all.

Further, if you believe that the responsible choice is to do what it takes to give the child the best life possible, even if that's via adoption, then, again, it's quite obvious how just killing it instead is shrugging off responsibility.


Again, these are personal beliefs and not shit you get to argue against by claiming that your opinions are fact.

I don't believe it took you 7 minutes to write that post, so I'm gonna go with "reading is fundamental."

[archibaldcrane]

It's just weird to advocate a system where the least responsible people are the ones barred from having abortions.

[Plow]

I don't agree with abortion in the slightest, mostly due to it being a gateway to irresponsible adolescents absolving themselves of sexual responsibility.

However, as an aspiring doctor and because I understand that accidents happen, I also acknowledge that you CANNOT apply universal rules of conduct to a general populace because there are ALWAYS extenuating circumstances.

As far as pulling out goes, I'll address it this way:

You have sex with a woman. You flex your kegels when you're about to come and you pull out your penis. You instead come on her chest, back, face, mouth, whatever. Being that there is NO sperm in precome (unless you have previously ejaculated within 1-2 days and have NOT urinated) unless you literally come inside the woman (even partially) there is ZERO chance of pregnancy. ZERO. The failure rates of pulling out all come from guys who have absolutely no control and/or wait until the absolute last second to pull out. Most guys will pull out and then jerk off for the money shot. If this is not you, you're DOING IT WRONG.

Second - there is approximately a 72-hour window beginning before and ending after ovulation where sex will undoubtedly result in fertilization. Depending on when this fertilization takes place, the woman may or may not end up pregnant.

Now. This is during a NORMAL cycle. Several factors, including stress, sleep, emotional state, medication, diet, and sex itself influence when ovulation takes place. After ovulation the period normally arrives 14 days later. This means that women can have extended periods because menstruation does NOT occur unless ovulation has first occurred (how else do you think birth control works?).

Now that you know all of that, you can easily see why some women have no clue that they are pregnant until 2-3 months in. Implantation bleeding and bloody tinges can easily be confused for light periods (something that you would have no clue of if you either weren't a woman or were not in a long-term relationship with one) and so women often don't take the necessary precautions to prevent further development at that point.

Having said all of this, I do not agree with abortions as a "get-out-of-jail-free" tactic, but I do agree that it is not only not my choice to make, there is often not a lot that can be done to prevent pregnancy if it's going to happen and you've taken every precaution.

You should *never* force someone to carry and raise a baby just because you see fit to pass judgment on their responsibility. Sometimes you are totally responsible and still end up with the short end of a stick. Sometimes you're a woman walking down the road and somebody comes by and rapes you at the right time and there you have it. You should not force people to live with these consequences when it wasn't their fault. Like I said, accidents happen.

I think what is perhaps the most intriguing facet of your argument is that you cling to it and call others stupid because you have been consistently shown to be wrong, Plow. No matter what approach people use, your response is always the same. That tells me you don't have a message; you have a voice that cries to be heard.

You can keep calling me an idiot and a retard and whatever you want to. I may have difficult assembling my thoughts but this is one subject I can frankly say you are outclassed in.

The problem is that you're either failing to realize or just straight up ignoring the fact that I'm acknowledging all of these things.

[RKenshin]

So if you do everything right, use condoms and BC and still get pregnant and your backup last resort is getting an abortion... How is doing so irresponsible?

I completely do not understand this argument at all.

^
Pretty much my feeling.

I'm in the mood for a metahor, anyone else? Yes? No? You get one anyway:

It would be like calling the guy that wears SPF100 every day, avoids being in the sun for prolonged periods, and doesn't tan/use booths/etc but still develops skin cancer irresponsible.

Sure, that person could've lived in a fucking shaded bubble their entire lives and never exposed themselves to any sunlight whatsoever, but what the hell kind of a realistic expectation is that? Just like it isn't realistic to force or even 'ask/suggest' that people don't ever have and/or severely restrict their sex lives.