The WoW Factor

[Ksandra]

Or, the WoW solution: after spending hours upon countless hours acquiring a hard-won piece of gear, the very next expansion reduces the most elite gear to worse-than-AH trash. And it does this every time.

I think you are going to find that the mass majority doesn't mind this, except maybe outside of legendaries. Because the hours it takes to get the gear you want in WoW isn't nearly the same amount of time as in FFXI.

Face it, you make like it, that's your prerogative, but you are in the minority, and SE is going to care about subscriptions.

[Ksandra]

Was XI the first to do an auction house? Damn, I thought Asheron's Call had one... perhaps that was AC2.

Anarchy Online had the first auction house, not FFXI.

[Spider-Dan]

AFAICT, AO got an AH in the 2004 expansion.

I believe XI was also the first cross-platform MMO, but that might depend on how you define MMO.

Face it, you make like it, that's your prerogative, but you are in the minority, and SE is going to care about subscriptions.

You can make exactly this argument for anything that's in WoW and not in FF. Locked to single-class instead of job change? The market has spoken. No console support? The market has spoken.

[Ksandra]

AFAICT, AO got an AH in the 2004 expansion.

You could be right, though that's what I was always told (never played AO and can't find any info on it one way or the other).

I believe XI was also the first cross-platform MMO, but that might depend on how you define MMO.

I guess that depends on whether or not you'd want to count the EQ thing. (not the same as FFXI's thing)

You can make exactly this argument for anything that's in WoW and not in FF. Locked to single-class instead of job change? The market has spoken. No console support? The market has spoken.

You brought up WoW's example first, not me. Don't complain when I point out why it was a bad example.


[edit] I don't want FFXIV to have WoW numbers, but you really haven't a clue on the gaming community if you think a new MMO could survive on FFXI's model.

[Viq]

I guess that depends on whether or not you'd want to count the EQ thing. (not the same as FFXI's thing)

I wouldn't count it. EQ and EQA were different games, and didn't share servers.

[Ksandra]

I wouldn't count it. EQ and EQA were different games, and didn't share servers.

Only reason why I would "kinda" count it is simply because having an mmo on a console was huge back then. Most people didn't have comps that could run EQ (crazy to think!) So it was sorty of Sony giving people an opportunity to play an EQ mmo on it.

But I definitely could see it being argued either way.

[Spider-Dan]

I guess that depends on whether or not you'd want to count the EQ thing. (not the same as FFXI's thing)

If you're talking about Champions of Norrath, it was an online MMO but it did not interface with PC EQ (it was actually a completely different, Diablo-style game).

edit: oops, yeah EQOA. That also didn't interface with PC EQ.

You brought up WoW's example first, not me. Don't complain when I point out why it was a bad example.

[edit] I don't want FFXIV to have WoW numbers, but you really haven't a clue on the gaming community if you think a new MMO could survive on FFXI's model.

I'm simply saying that there are benefits and drawbacks to either model. Keep in mind that no one's asking for the part where items take hundreds of tedious hours to get (nor is it required)... but the part where you get a really great item and it stays great is a good thing in my eyes. My O-bow didn't take that long to get, and I rode that item for nearly my entire XI playtime.

The "scoreboard" response is not really productive, as it would lead every discussion to the result of "copy what WoW did" (which, ironically, has been thoroughly proven not to work).

[Ksandra]

I'm simply saying that there are benefits and drawbacks to either model. Keep in mind that no one's asking for the part where items take hundreds of tedious hours to get (nor is it required)... but the part where you get a really great item and it stays great is a good thing in my eyes. My O-bow didn't take that long to get, and I rode that item for nearly my entire XI playtime.

And I think that's terrible. Why would I want to wear the same piece of gear for forever? It's boring.

If you don't have any gear take those tedious hours, and that gear isn't getting replaced by anything, you end up maxing out your char in a few months with nothing else to do because nothing is going to replace what you got.

The "scoreboard" response is not really productive, as it would lead every discussion to the result of "copy what WoW did" (which, ironically, has been thoroughly proven not to work).

Again, YOU brought it up. How is that hard for you to grasp? Stop plowing.

[Grey Jorildyn]

There were MUDs I played in 1998-2000 that had equal or better Auction House systems than XI. Those were text-based games, for the younguns.

[Spider-Dan]

If you don't have any gear take those tedious hours, and that gear isn't getting replaced by anything, you end up maxing out your char in a few months with nothing else to do because nothing is going to replace what you got.

....unless there is horizontal gear progression and you can get lots of other situational pieces, which is entirely the point.

Again, YOU brought it up. How is that hard for you to grasp? Stop plowing.

It is possible to discuss WoW model vs. FF model without simply saying "well WoW has more subscribers so you're in the minority."

[Ksandra]

....unless there is horizontal gear progression and you can get lots of other situational pieces, which is entirely the point.

If the gear is the same as the gear you got, there's no point in doing said content.

It is possible to discuss WoW model vs. FF model without simply saying "well WoW has more subscribers so you're in the minority."

That's not what I said. nice try though.

[Raldo]

I think this sums the thread up nicely.

I don't even like...
I like...
I don't want to feel...

Vertical progression is also a game design style that works. It's not inherently better or worse than horizontal, automatically thinking so is just personal bias or prejudice. They both have their own unique ups and downs. It's simply different.

[Viq]

I think this sums the thread up nicely.

http://www.deeho.net/misc/gifs/Arres...lopmentNod.gif

[Lucavi]

I'm simply saying that there are benefits and drawbacks to either model.

Are the benefits proven to be financial? For a company, that's all that matters. SE is no different, especially when they showed that they're more than willing to take a PR hit by the media if it means bilking out easy money, as was the case with All The Bravest.

I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but it really is what it is. If you can prove that something you liked in XI - something you deem worthy of acclaim - can bring in the bacon, then I'm sure they'd bring it in. But bacon either means lots of subs or lots of cash shop sales these days. I don't think anything you've trumped up is going to do a lot for either - not in the numbers that SE wants to see from this game.

[barber2006]

I'm a little more optimistic about FFXIV's content updates not even needing to be as frequent as those in WoW. The ability to play multiple jobs on the same character will always allow for new content to be relevant. I seriously doubt they will make item acquisition so easy that someone can max out all jobs between updates. So if you "finish" content in three months and they only update every six months you will have a chance to gear up that second job (or moderately improve several). Yes, for people that only like to play one job and can maximize in a short period of time there will be some downtime in between updates. But generally (at least in ffxi) the people who were ambitious enough to max a job completely and quickly also had several good alternate jobs for either event specific needs or just for fun.

I'm hoping for a system where the hardest of the hardcore can complete 80%ish of all gear needs for every job between updates. Where most serious endgame players can finish 2-3 jobs per update or finish one job complete with relic weapon upgrades. Where normal endgame players can get 90% of the gear they need for 1-2 jobs. Where casuals can acquire a full set of gear for one job that is 90% as good as the elite stuff. Something like that would give everyone something to do at all times and would allow for plenty of epeen while allowing everyone to gear up to the point of being able to do 90% of the content. And if someone actually maxes all jobs once the updates start flying in there is always rod of the luminary.

[Deadgye]

I have a problem with doing these contents for 7+ years.

Were you absolutely horrible at the game or something? You've got on some reverse nostalgia goggles.Let's start off by saying we all agree fuck everything kings, but besides that the only event I can even think of that I continued to do for "years" was dynamis. And the only reason for that was because it dropped gear for all 15/18 jobs, which meant every single person wanted on average 10~15 items from it. I got everything I wanted from dynamis in months and continued doing it because it was fun. (I pulled most of the time, did sac pulls, etc.)

I revisited content over the years constantly yeah, but it's not like I was making an effort to do it consistently. It was usually to help people get their items, to have some quick fun, or something else. I don't understand why still having a reason to do old content is apparently a bad thing. Content becoming worthless is a bane that every single developer tries their hardest to avoid. XI went through the trouble of revamping dynamis and salvage because they made it worthless with abyssea. WoW went through the trouble of adding achievements and other stuff to give players a reason to do the older raids.

Not to mention the shit ass drop rates that made it take forever for people to get their pieces anyway.

In actuality drop rates were only slightly bad. There were a few rare things here and there that were horrible, but most of the misconceptions about bad drop rates stemmed from people not doing events efficiently or not understanding the way certain mechanics worked. Take dynamis-xarcabard for example. People moaned about the horrible drop rates constantly, but that's because their shells were just going around and only killing the NM demons that had a higher chance to drop the respective job's AF. If you just farmed regular demons as much as possible and actually used a thief to tag every mob you were swimming in AF.

What also made the drop rates seem worse was the cooldowns on things, but that's a problem with the cooldowns. You might argue that the drop rates should have been balanced around the cooldowns, but that's a mistakenly naive view that conflits with an mmo developers design goal. Cooldowns should have simply been shorter.

-----

@ Deadgye: When locking XI into its own little time capsule in the era of "well its cool to rip off of EQ because nothing else has hit the market to change everything", I can agree with most everything you said. When looking back at it based on the genre as a whole, I cannot. XI continues to be financially successful because the number of loyal of subs compared to the cost of keeping the servers running and devoting content updates a few times a year is in a favorable position. Even trying to repeat XI in modern times would break the bank if even XI's peak subs managed to be retained for more than a few months, which typically does not happen in the current MMO genre.

I don't understand why you'd even make such an unfair comparison, what point are you trying to support? Most games as a whole do not age well with time. If Crash Nitro Kart was released today it wouldn't be worth the original price tag.

To say nothing of its actual systems, its kind of pointless to continue to praise this and that about what XI did right if those things done right didn't actually lead to change within the genre. At best, I think we could say that the upcoming EQ may have taken a bit of its job system from XI and Rift, but that's about it (off the top of my head). I'd be curious, though, to see just how many compiled things people can come up with that XI actually changed the game on, given that they took 90% of their concepts from EQ and the remaining 10% from SE archives.

Being able to have multiple classes on the same character? Their style of auction house? Also don't forget that a lot of the systems of mmos aren't better or worse than others, but something that's usually personal preference. Just because every other game didn't copy a certain part of it, doesn't mean that the part wasn't good. A game doesn't have to reinvent a genre to be good. Metal Gear Online doesn't need to influence games like COD to be good.

Face it, you make like it, that's your prerogative, but you are in the minority, and SE is going to care about subscriptions.

You then also have to face that the opposite is also a prerogative. You can't say something wasn't good because it's not liked or preferred by the majority. That's not how objectivity works.

[Ksandra]

I'm a little more optimistic about FFXIV's content updates not even needing to be as frequent as those in WoW. The ability to play multiple jobs on the same character will always allow for new content to be relevant. I seriously doubt they will make item acquisition so easy that someone can max out all jobs between updates. So if you "finish" content in three months and they only update every six months you will have a chance to gear up that second job (or moderately improve several). Yes, for people that only like to play one job and can maximize in a short period of time there will be some downtime in between updates. But generally (at least in ffxi) the people who were ambitious enough to max a job completely and quickly also had several good alternate jobs for either event specific needs or just for fun.

I'm hoping for a system where the hardest of the hardcore can complete 80%ish of all gear needs for every job between updates. Where most serious endgame players can finish 2-3 jobs per update or finish one job complete with relic weapon upgrades. Where normal endgame players can get 90% of the gear they need for 1-2 jobs. Where casuals can acquire a full set of gear for one job that is 90% as good as the elite stuff. Something like that would give everyone something to do at all times and would allow for plenty of epeen while allowing everyone to gear up to the point of being able to do 90% of the content. And if someone actually maxes all jobs once the updates start flying in there is always rod of the luminary.

I agree with all of this. I don't expect SE to be able to put out fast content. They don't even really need to as long as the content is good. I mentioned this a few pages back, but I think the FFMMO's strongest asset is being multi-job friendly, which isn't the case for most mmos. I really think that's something a good enough of the playerbase does want. If SE continues to find ways to encourage people to lvl multiple jobs (ie. like that whm mount), they'll be in a good enough place to at least get more subs than the cost to run the game.

[Spider-Dan]

Are the benefits proven to be financial? For a company, that's all that matters.

That doesn't really tell us anything of value, since copying WoW has also proven to be financially unsuccessful.

[Ksandra]

You then also have to face that the opposite is also a prerogative. You can't say something wasn't good because it's not liked or preferred by the majority. That's not how objectivity works.

It's how sales works. Which is what SE cares about. This is not a hard concept.

[Lucavi]

That doesn't really tell us anything of value, since copying WoW has also proven to be financially unsuccessful.

It wasn't meant to tell you anything of value. It was meant to explain to you why or why not something may or may not exist in a game, regardless of how highly individual players feel about said something.

Its about economics. This is not rocket science. You know this.