Prison Reform

[Ksandra]

Either legislating dangerous behavior is a good idea, or it's not. If it is, we should probably expand it to more dangerous activities. If not, we should stop it.

Or we can decide where we draw the line based on how dangerous it is to said person.

For example, marijuana doesn't have any addictive properties, and doesn't destroy your health. I would never ever put it under the bubble as say bath salts.

I have no reason to believe we have to be that black and white about it.

[hey]

Or we can decide where we draw the line based on how dangerous it is to said person.

That's not what we do though. We ban almost all recreational drugs, and nothing else (that is dangerous only to the person doing it), no matter how dangerous. You are suggesting we ban far more activities than we currently do for this reason.

[Ksandra]

That's not what we do though. We ban almost all recreational drugs, and nothing else (that is dangerous only to the person doing it), no matter how dangerous. You are suggesting we ban far more activities than we currently do for this reason.

1. I didn't say it's what we do, I said that's what we should do. Look at each thing individually.

2. Banning more or less depends on the limit made, there's no way to tell that.

[Jaybar]

@Buffy

Spoiler: show

Why are we as a society ok with people fucking up their lives? Yea I agree about legalization but not because "people have the right to fuck up their lives". What is this, the Dark Ages? We just give up on people that seemingly have given up on themselves?

Because it's none of our business. Other than drugs, we don't legislate anything else that would fuck up people's lives. Putting them in jail just makes their lives even worse anyway. Not to mention the senseless violence caused by drug wars that kills plenty of innocent people.

I was trying not to explicitly bring in a government legislation viewpoint, but rather a moral and objective viewpoint. However, reading some of the responses the argument is indeed murky and I don't feel like wasting anyone's time elaborating upon it (Fuck it, I will, and it's below - else carry on).

I agree with you that putting these people in jail is detrimental to their psyche. Rehabilitation centers are the go-to, but I don't know any statistics on reform, or whether there are other alternatives to rehab clinics.

Because personal responsibility is the core of adulthood.

Because what is right for me is not always what is right for someone else.

(spoiled only because long, yet still pertinent)

Spoiler: show

Because the constitution specifically limits certain rights, and outside of those specific limits the government shouldn't have the right to tell me what to do. Its why I'm okay with a texting or dui law - texting while driving has the possibility to impact another person if you hit them when you aren't paying attention. Its why I'm okay with limiting the rights of smokers to smoke inside where their smoke can give me cancer, but I support their right to smoke at home or outside, because it's their life and it's their choices.

Because where do you set the line about what is good for someone? Should we only allow salads or wraps from our fast food chains? Should we only allow ergonomic chairs? Should we only allow one hour of TV watching a day because being sedentary is bad for you? Should we require 1 hour of exercise every day, documented, before a person has access to the health care system?

Because telling someone that "this" is okay, but "that" isn't leads to an erosion of personal liberties, like privacy and freedom. For instance, the courts have decided that it is okay to listen to transcripts of my phone calls if I am talking to someone overseas that is a suspected terrorist or those that associate with them (the recent NSA debate). I find this to be an erosion of personal privacy and freedom.

Telling me that I'm not allowed to smoke weed (which, for the record, I've never touched and have no real desire to) because its bad for me, what does that lead to? Being told I can't have a medical procedure that I want? Which leads to what? Being told I can't have a medical procedure I need?

These are all extreme examples, but they are the concerns I fear 10, 20, or 50 years from now. Small liberties, like being able to injest whatever the hell I want into my body should be my right. It's the abortion argument, right? It's *MY* body, let me do what I want with it.

At the bold - I want to suggest that personal responsibility is still a product of their surroundings. If their friends/family/social network don't support them or help them, then they will continue to struggle. To ignore them in support of "none of my business" only makes it worse for them.

See my response to Day. This is why I didn't want to bring in government action because it's too difficult. However, every day we are constantly telling people why certain things are not good for you in certain quantities (scientifically proven!). And you constantly hear about how these people (drug-abusers, food-abusers, et. al) are draining our resources to keep them alive. This is why I made the argument I made. To ignore them is to make it worse, and it does affect you - just not directly.

Legalizing drugs would seem to help reduce influx of prisoners and reduce drug cartel influence/violence. Removing prison sentences in favor of alternative rehabilitation methods is even better psychologically (and economically for the rest).

I visited Basel, Switzerland over the summer and I was told by the locales that instead of punishing the heroin users, they actually set up a safe-facility for them. They offer clean and sterile supplies (needles, etc) to reduce the spread of disease as well as rehabilitation. Instead of demonizing the people, they embrace them. This is way too liberal in America but it is the moral way to a better end. And yes, that is my subjective viewpoint on morality.

[hey]

To ignore them in support of "none of my business" only makes it worse for them.

We definitely shouldn't ignore them. We should provide better education, so people understand how dangerous some drugs really are (and let's stop telling kids they'll die if they smoke weed...). We also need to have more resources for drug users to get help. As you talked about, we should provide safe places with clean needles, and a doctor nearby, to lessen the harm for those who still choose to take dangerous drugs. Rehab for those who need/want it should be made reasonably available too.

People are going to use drugs. We cannot stop that. Trying to stop it probably does more harm than the drugs actually do. The solution is to help those who want it to remain as safe as possible.

[Kohan]

Trying to stop it probably does more harm than the drugs actually do.

There's no "probably" about it, you can rest assured—the amount of money spent on the drug war is obscene, and that is damaging enough.

[Melena]

The thing with people saying rehabilitation is the way to go, not jail, you have to realize the person has to want to be rehabilitated if it's going to work. Hell, my ex has had at least two babies taken away, been in jail several times for under the influence, burglary, etc etc etc over the last twelve years and she still carries on with it. Some people sadly are just beyond help.

Or we can go beyond drugs and look at Alcohol. My uncle in the last ten+ years has gotten 3 dui's, done the mandatory AA meetings, license suspended, etc. He still drinks till he's falling over drunk. Only change with him is he got sick of buying cheap cars and wondering why they break down in a year so he just rents one when he goes out for a weekend trip with his gf. But just like his dad, he refuses to accept he's got an addiction problem. Same with gambling or any other addicting vice.

[ronin sparthos]

Rehab and Jail need not be mutually exclusive.

[Mazmaz]

The thing with people saying rehabilitation is the way to go, not jail, you have to realize the person has to want to be rehabilitated if it's going to work. Hell, my ex has had at least two babies taken away, been in jail several times for under the influence, burglary, etc etc etc over the last twelve years and she still carries on with it. Some people sadly are just beyond help.

Or we can go beyond drugs and look at Alcohol. My uncle in the last ten+ years has gotten 3 dui's, done the mandatory AA meetings, license suspended, etc. He still drinks till he's falling over drunk. Only change with him is he got sick of buying cheap cars and wondering why they break down in a year so he just rents one when he goes out for a weekend trip with his gf. But just like his dad, he refuses to accept he's got an addiction problem. Same with gambling or any other addicting vice.

It's not really that it "doesn't work for some people". It's that we don't have a solid theory on how addiction works yet, so we can't properly treat it in all cases. More research is needed to try and figure out why people relapse.

[Melena]

Rehab and Jail need not be mutually exclusive.

Never said they were

It's not really that it "doesn't work for some people". It's that we don't have a solid theory on how addiction works yet, so we can't properly treat it in all cases. More research is needed to try and figure out why people relapse.

Even if we did, if the person is only going to go through the motions and doesn't give a shit cause they feel it's their body, no one else concern and continue the same destructive behavior, which depending on what it is and what they do while under the influence i.e. drunk driving, then they are going to continue not giving a fuck.

[Ksandra]

Part of the issue too is the chemical addictive drugs. Yayaya I know I know, anything can be addictive, but when you have that added chemical part that's effecting your brain, it's a lot harder to quit even if you wanted to. Rehab is all about trying to detox for the chemical and then the rest is all trying to work through the mental additive part, which is unfortunately not very effective for some. Especially as detoxing can be a painful experience.

Something like cigarettes, for example, has a lot more options involved in fighting the chemical addiction part. The patch, ecigs, etc. are all things that all people to help slowly get off their addiction without having to go far away for awhile.

I would really like to see a push in trying to find similar solutions before making some of the more heavy chemically addicting drugs legal.

It should be noted too that in regards to these particular drugs, some may try it off of peer pressure, or because they are in a low point in their life, but then that won't let them get out of the low because even if their life turns around for the better, that chemical is keeping them hooked.

[Acevalefor]

I would just like to point out that the semantics argument about the word "ban" coming from a board moderator is quite funny to me. When someone on here is banned temporarily, that is called a suspension in my book. But when we ban drugs/alcohol/tobacco from people below a certain age, it is called a ban...I don't even know what I am saying anymore. It was just funny and I have been up for 30+ hours. Carry on.

[djzombie]

Prohibition, of anything, creates crime. Drug addiction should be treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one.

That being said, there have been numerous studies proving the myriad of medical benefits marijuana has to offer, and what amounts to relatively little impact on ones health in comparison to alcohol and other illicit drugs.

It has been kept illegal simply because it was a driving force behind the rapid expansion of the prison industry. That and you can't patent the plant itself so we can't have people growing medicine in their backyards, how can pharma profit from that?

[BaneTheBrawler]

outlawing murder causes murder. like everything in life, this can be reduced to a simple, far-reach statement of absolute certainty.

[Pirian]

outlawing murder causes murder. like everything in life, this can be reduced to a simple, far-reach statement of absolute certainty.

Believe it or not, outlawing murder does cause murder (although, it stops many more murders, too). Welcome to psychology.

[djzombie]

if you want to take what I said and apply it to something like murder it still holds true, even as ridiculous as it sounds. I said prohibition creates crime. yea we prohibit murder, and if we didnt it wouldnt be a crime to kill someone. do I think that we should take it that far and have no laws, no. I just think we need to stop incarcerating non violent drug "offenders" who are othereise law abiding citizens and concentrate the justice system on violent crimes.

we need to stop criminalizing common behavior that harms no one.

[BaneTheBrawler]

the second sentence of my post was the important bit, but okay.