Dungeon Tour Trailer

[cassiraa]

The Wanderer's Palace and Castrum Meridianum look amazing, but they all look good. There's enough XI to have nostalgia, but enough new stuff to be awesome.

The Stone Vigil palace looks a lot like Dark Souls 'Painted World of Aramais' (and I mean that in a good way.) I didn't really get into XIV before, so I don't know how these used to be, so I'm pretty excited.

[Deuce]

The shielded building that you see during the Meridianum part appears to be the Praetorium, yes.

Whether you have to actually enter from within the Meridianum instance or not is yet to be seen. They could easily place the dungeon portal in Centri.

I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter so long as the dungeons are fun, but a dungeon inside of a dungeon would be cool.

[Reve]

I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter so long as the dungeons are fun, but a dungeon inside of a dungeon would be cool.

You'll probably get Duty Finder access when you successfully complete the first dungeon. I'm wondering if we'll get a Battlefield where we fight all the Legatus at the same time, like the Ark Angel fight.

[Greedouw]

The locales look great; nice job SE

[XalienLevi]

I thought CC was one of the best looking dungeons from that video. I'm a little sad at how it seems to be level40~ now (it's looking like the dungeons are listed in ascending levels like in the first vid).

Almost certain CC has a lv 50 Hard Mode as well.

[Ratatapa]

Almost certain CC has a lv 50 Hard Mode as well.

I though hard mode was mostly just for Primals?

[Elcura]

See, in English, if you say, "LeBron James' career has been just as good as Magic Johnson's, except for the number of championships" then you are already admitting that it's not as good. Adding the disclaimer doesn't magically make it immaterial.

Yeah, except that's not what I'm saying. Is that what you read though?

So when you say that making a new mob from scratch is "just as much work" as redoing an already-existing mob except for creating its look and animation, you have already supplied the reason why it is not just as much work. Creating the look and animation is not insignificant.

I'm not, I'm supplying the reason as to why it's faster but ultimately you have to do the work with a new model or an old reference to get it into the game. The difference being how fast you do it.

Except really is the keyword here.

I'm not looking down on concept artists because I know better. I know they can, have and often do create amazing concepts in 2 hours or less. Not because I want them to, not because I need them to, but because they just fucking did it.

as far as FFXI goes, the opposite is more likely to be true. some of the new monsters are, so to speak, inspired by their XI counterparts.. like say thunder elemental, which are distinctly different. but most of them are practically identical to their XI counterparts.. like the colibri, gargouille, taurus.. and many more.

I'm assuming you meant FFXIV at the start there otherwise this makes no sense. Anyway, obviously being inspired is the same as directly taking influence/elements from old material and implementing them. In the end, you still have to make/modify and animate shit.

they aren't taking the models from other games per se, but they are definitely reusing assets created in other games.

The only assets they could reasonably use are ones from FFX-XIII, anything older than that will get redone completely. Reusing inspiration obviously, reusing assets depends on their technology and methodology.

It doesn't take an expert eye to realize that the models that look identical as they did in XI share the same motions - they imported the skeletal animations. all they're really doing is likely applying higher res textures for a game that needs it. it tales a lot less time and costs less im sure.

I wouldn't say they look identical at all. An eye for detail will show you differences in both texture, silhouette and hell even direct shape/stance. The monsters don't just have high res textures (which are clearly different, just from a technical standpoint), their silhouettes are cleaner and smoother which means it has a higher polycount so there are two conclusions (three if you believe in magic).

1: Making the models from scratch using the originals as inspiration. With 3D sculpting this is a lot less painful that pulling vertices around all day, deleting edges and remaking loops, making it a standard approach.

2: Taking the models from XI/XII, stripping them down and building them back up. The average character in FFX, XI and XII had around 1500 polys. FFXIV's have around 5000-6000 without any clothes. You take these very low poly assets from a PS2 game into something that is basically a PS3 game, it's going to obvious unless heavy modifications are made, hell, it's going to be impossible to use unless modifications are made. How they're made is manually, unless they can do 3.

3: They have a magic HD button that increases texture resolution, fills in all the pixels needed without blur, makes all the relevant maps needed, adds edgeloops, smoothes out the silhouette (while accounting for animation), even adds in extra little details to the model that the original couldn't have due to limitations. Even if they had a magic button like this, they would still need to use method 2 to ensure nothing went wrong, and if something did go wrong they would need to do 1 or 2 anyway. Risky, but I've seen scripts that have attempted to do things like this very badly, the most effective take a high poly model and make it smaller while retaining detail. The opposite is practically a dream afaik.

But hey, it's SE, who knows what hidden tech they have.

If they aren't recreating them just using the originals as reference, then they're heavily modifying the models (because they have higher polycounts) which takes a lot of work like cleaning up imported animation and models.

I'd tell you why this is a lot of work but it would be long. It basically has to do with how PS2 models were created for implementation, the creation of normal maps (which uses a high res model on a low res target--red Shiva) and how 3D sculpting works (again, red Shiva), which is why I believe that starting from scratch and just sculpting something that looks the same is faster than modifying something, then sculpting it. Of course, this could be down to the artists individually or SE's work flow, either way it isn't a simple, easy practice like you would imagine. Just saying "Ah yeah they just ripped the models lolz" is completely disingenuous to what they actually need to do. Which, by the way, isn't as much fun as making your own badass monster.

[solracht]

Almost certain CC has a lv 50 Hard Mode as well.

It hasn't been confirmed nor hinted at (not for CC specifically at least), so I'm not sure where your certainty comes from.

[Raldo]

4: Perhaps they already had them in HD, but were compressed for size later on, so they just had to pull their unused HD assets.

[xopher]

They already said this game would include lots of fan service to previous Final Fantasy games. Reusing designs is part of that fan service. It's not just XI they're pulling from either.








Look familiar? All are from FF12.

Let's not forget the Deathclaw and Demon Wall mobs that are being taken from previous FF games as well.

This is Final Fantasy. They've reused designs from the beginning.

[Elcura]

4: Perhaps they already had them in HD, but were compressed for size later on, so they just had to pull their unused HD assets.

Why would they do that? They didn't need HD models for PS2 games, they would've used a low poly version for in-game, higher poly face for cut scenes and FMV versions. In any case, there would be no reason to create HD monsters unless they were being used in cutscenes, and models for production are so far removed from models for videogames that you're practically doing the same amount of work anyway. This isn't an option realistically unless SE has psychic powers.

edit: Just so people know, I like that they're taking shit from XI and XII. Just give them more credit for doing so, because it isn't easy work, even if you know what you're doing.

[miokomioko]

Elcura, have you, personally, noticed inferior texture resolution, bump-mapping, or specular-mapping on the "recycled" XI/XII mobs? To me, a lot of them look really bad up close; the textures look like they are suffering from raster interpolation, as if they just reused the original artwork... and I don't recall, off-hand, any actual bump-mapping or specular-mapping where it really should be (Pugils should look shiny/wet & Taurus veins should have some dimensionality).

[Stromgarde]

Riggings and skeletons don't change based on poly count. That's based off the skeleton, which you wouldn't necessarily even need to change depending on how involved you want the animations to be. Animations would need to be (and have been) redone however from what I can tell.
I can recall reading somewhere that professional designers often start with high poly count models and then cut them down for use as actual assets, so such a thing would not be unheard of if they have the original 13+ year old assets lying around for some of these things which admittedly is a bit of a stretch. Shoehorning in more polygons to an existing low-poly model on the other hand is pretty lol.

Anyway, once we have the same quality tools for XIV as we did for XI we should be able to put the discussion to bed fairly easily.

[Elcura]

Elcura, have you, personally, noticed inferior texture resolution, bump-mapping, or specular-mapping on the "recycled" XI/XII mobs? To me, a lot of them look really bad up close; the textures look like they are suffering from raster interpolation, as if they just reused the original artwork... and I don't recall, off-hand, any actual bump-mapping or specular-mapping where it really should be (Pugils should look shiny/wet & Taurus veins should have some dimensionality).

Texture size is often an iffy area and often texture resolution is what kills engines (and the more maps you use, the more you compound this issue) so it's prudent to use as much as necessary. To answer your question though, I don't think the imported models look worse, rather than monster texture detail and quality being pretty low across the board except for larger monsters. The only clear difference is the design of the original monsters, which look like they can have much more complex movement and animation (which is also why I would think remaking or heavy modification is necessary). Though, for things like Pugils that literally only open their mouths and flap their tails it could be likely that a direct rip could be done. I wouldn't believe it though.

Necessary is how much attention the average person is going to pay attention to something. Usually people don't pay attention to the grass, because when you do you get grass modification options that you don't need. You aren't supposed to look at the grass that closely, or that tree, or that beehive. Because you're supposed to take the picture in as a whole so the detail goes in parts that are naturally going to be noticed or that need to be noticed. Obviously, this is not the average FF fan otherwise we would leave grass alone.

So for trash mobs (which these mostly are) they are expectedly not amazing. Considering how small something may be and many of them there are, it isn't surprising that you get something low resolution when you look at it up close. For the most part, no normal monster is going to stand up to that kind of scrutiny unless it was large (an adamantoise is going to need more detail than a Mandy), but I expect that for the most part so I look at the monster from a reasonable distance. They also might further optimize monsters due to size and what they want it to do (you don't need a high poly tail and detailed tail rig for a Raptor that can't use a tail swipe type attack).

Pugils not having specular sounds weird, since I'm pretty sure shit like Adamantoise have them. It could just be a size and noticeability issue. But for the normal maps, sometimes it depends on the quality of light or the actual surface to make it obvious. In cases where the texture resolution is tiny, the surface of the creature doesn't allow for it or the lighting won't reveal any detail, you can get away with the bare minimal just so it doesn't look out of place (which can make it unnoticeable).

Riggings and skeletons don't change based on poly count. That's based off the skeleton, which you wouldn't necessarily even need to change depending on how involved you want the animations to be. Animations would need to be (and have been) redone however from what I can tell.
I can recall reading somewhere that professional designers often start with high poly count models and then cut them down for use as actual assets, so such a thing would not be unheard of if they have the original 13+ year old assets lying around for some of these things which admittedly is a bit of a stretch. Shoehorning in more polygons to an existing low-poly model on the other hand is pretty lol.

Anyway, once we have the same quality tools for XIV as we did for XI we should be able to put the discussion to bed fairly easily.

You can import skeletons, rigs and animation (the latter I wouldn't recommend) but you still need to do a good amount of cleanup. Most animators I speak to prefer to work from fresh than modify, but making a good rig and skeleton is hard. If you import one, you're basically stuck to that level of animation and quality, which may be enough but I'm certain rigging has gotten far more powerful in the last 10 years. I dunno if using a 10 year old rig would still be worthwhile, especially depending on what program they use. But if they could use one, I would think it for the best.

Professional 3D artists often do start with a high poly model and work down, but this is with current technology that means making high poly models is actually easier than creating a low poly optimized version. Which is to say, they create the high poly mesh and use whatever retopologization tools/methods they have to create the low poly version around that. However, when this wasn't such a wide spread, efficient and common practice, you would have to make a low poly version just from making a low poly version. You wouldn't remake an unoptimized version into an optimized one, you would just optimize the model you had around since there was no point in keeping the unoptimized version.

That is to say, you just made what you needed how you needed it. Now, what you're saying is true and I totally forgot about it (even when Raldo mentioned it, but his phrasing was off), but they could have unoptimized versions of their models to use and modify that are still clean quads which would be ideal in terms of saving time. This ultimately depends on their practices which change constantly and from project to project. However, unoptimized and "HD" are two very different things. Apologies Raldo, if the above is what you meant. Even if they were unoptimized there is still work to be done on getting it up to standard (and I should mention that some unoptimized models are UGLY, and might not be useful depending on the state).

Yeah, working from low poly to high is retarded, which is why I don't think they'd do that. However, I'd replace my 2 with the unoptimized version and I would say it could be 50/50 between remaking from scratch and important unoptimized versions for modification.

[miokomioko]

Well, I only make the observation primarily because they absolutely knocked it out of the park with a lot of the detailing of 1.0 and XIV-original mobs. Specular/bump mapping on Salamanders, for example is rock solid while I don't think most of these recent XI/XII "imports" got the same attention to detail at all. I mean, it's not a big deal because, as you said, they are trash mobs that you rarely care to get a close-up look at, but an Eft standing next to a Pugil is like night and day. Tauri were a notable offender when I came across those... really bad interpolation/blurring on their veiny textures with no bump-mapping while Salamanders (again) have a similar design that looks legit.

*shrug*

[Lucavi]

Needs more Dr. Lugae and/or Rubicante.

"Lugae... that madman."

Who knows, maybe they'll have a Professor Putricide-esque raid with Lugae and his experiments as bosses. Balnabas would be hilarious.

"OW! Not me, you idiot! Them! Over there!"

"RAAAAGHH!!!"

[Stromgarde]

Let's take our beloved (traumatizing?) clippers for example.


(917 faces total, forgot to put that in the image)

While the skeleton and rigging may be up for discussion, bump maps and specular stuffs are not something you would do unless you were going to use it, and at any rate didn't exist in the assets which made it to the consumer end. Hell, they didn't even use an alpha map. They're uniformly shiny. If I were them, trying to ship a product and get new stuff into the game I would be sorely tempted to just toss a bicubic resample on the texture to get it up to snuff and put it in the game and worry about the finer points later.

[miokomioko]

If I were them, trying to ship a product and get new stuff into the game I would be sorely tempted to just toss a bicubic resample on the texture to get it up to snuff and put it in the game and worry about the finer points later.

This is exactly what I assume was going on. I just found it to be a ":/" that I found it noticeable. Then again, not every player knows enough about these things to know what actually looks wrong, if anything at all. I'm sure very few people would actually pick that out. While I don't think resampling the original texture brought it "up to snuff," I wonder if they have any intentions on redesigning them to eventually match the quality of the rest of the assets.

So how 'bout them dungeons...

[Waraji]

I hope they put some thought into the re-texturing for Dx11 release.

[Reve]

You also have to remember that we're all as old as balls. How many of the 150k+ Beta people actually spent hours and hours in Kuftal killing crabs to get huffy about mobs? I personally don't really bat an eye, I like to see the older mobs. Could the texture be enhanced? Certainly, but you have to also figure in other factors. Do you want highly up to snuff mobs, but a limited number of variety? Or would you rather have more mob variety, but some graphical imports? While in some instances it shouldn't be one or the other, for example an expansion should definitely have more new than retooled, you have to account for other factors. Lezzbehonest, it's not like Yoshi was given a good toolbox to pull utilize from Tanaka.

Back to the more interesting topic of dungeons. Has it been mentioned if all those dungeons are going to be Light Party, or will it switch to Full Party at some point? Or will we have a mixture of Light/Full Parties even at higher levels?