Bard Detail

**Petitssk** · 2013-12-16 11:08

Originally Posted by Deadgye

Except Allagan Ring is also a turn 5 drop. Getting one turn 5 drop (pants) is technically more likely than getting two turn 5 drops (weapon+ring). And then the second set still isn't even undeniably better than the first?

It's a best in slot list, not a gear that's really good but still also easily obtainable list.

Maybe I should stop calling stuff best in slot, because that concept doesn't translate correctly to a game with options. It's a best gearset or something.

I was just pointing out the logic behind the argument, but I think that, as I said before, we agree that the answer boils down to which setup actually is the best one.

**Deadgye** · 2013-12-16 11:21

Arrg, I still prrotest! Thar be no logic behind that yonder argument!

I foresee myself just getting every single thing and then mix-matching the shit out of everything. It's not like I'm interested in other DoW/DoM classes enough to declare a secondary yet after all.

**Katlan** · 2013-12-16 11:34

Can you even make up that accuracy loss from current bows in order to use the primal weapon? Thats a good chunk of accuracy lost and I don't see where you can make it up elsewhere

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 11:36

Originally Posted by Deadgye

It doesn't make sense to have the best gear in a BiS list?

My point was just that you only want to use Allagan pants if you don't have Allagan bow, which means (to me) that they're not best in slot. Why would you put a temporary item in a BiS list? Allagan bow is an example of a BiS item, regardless of what else you have there's nothing that's better for that slot. I'm not saying there are no situations in which you would want to use Allagan pants, but I am saying that they're not your destination.

Weapon base damage and main stat are still far and away the biggest factors in any gear piece and nobody has actually done the math to figure out how much crit you need in order to get enough additional Rivers of Blood procs to make up for it. Given how little % wise each crit point adds to your crit rate I'm betting that no amount of crit currently available can make up for losing base damage and several points in your main stat.

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 11:50

Originally Posted by Deadgye

Arrg, I still prrotest! Thar be no logic behind that yonder argument!

Sorry, I didn't address the portion of my comment about both dropping from T5.

My point there was that the Elfin bow is clearly a progression item - it's something you want to help you clear T5 so that you can get the Allagan bow, which is the actual best in slot weapon at this time. Figuring out if you can hit the T5 accuracy cap without Allagan pants is way more important than with them because - if you're already killing Twintania - you're already handling the hardest content the game has to offer so who really cares if you can juggle some items around to temporarily have slightly better stats for content you're already clearing?

Your goal is Allagan bow, you need to kill Twintania to get it, and Elfin bow can help you do that but only if you can get enough additional accuracy. Using an item you get by killing Twintania to help you get enough accuracy to use Elfin bow so you can kill Twintania doesn't seem super useful and it's definitely not "best in slot."

**Mattaru** · 2013-12-16 11:52

With this set:
Weapon: Allagan Composite Bow
Head: Alagan Visor of Aiming
Chest: Bard's Shirt
Gloves: Bard's Ringbands
Legs: Allagan Trousers of Aiming
Boots: Allagan Sollerets of Aiming

Neck: Allagan Choker of Aiming
Ear: Hero's Earrings of Aiming
Wrist: Inferno Bangle of Aiming
Ring: Vortex Ring of Aiming
Ring: Hero's Ring of Aiming
Food: HQ Deviled Eggs
Race: Plainsfolk Lalafell

I have 500 Dex, 483 ACC, 556 Crit, 244 Det, 359 SS.

By using the allagan pants instead of the bards pants you lose 17 det and 10 crit.
However the extra acc you gain allows you to use the EXMode Acc (instead of the allagan ring/ hero's bangle)giving you 11 det and 22 crit.
So basically its +6 det and +6 SS with Bard's tights vs +12 crit with allagan pants.

(forgot the vortex ring has 16 SS on it making the difference only 6 SS)

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 11:59

Originally Posted by Mattaru

With this set:
Weapon: Allagan Composite Bow
Head: Alagan Visor of Aiming
Chest: Bard's Shirt
Gloves: Bard's Ringbands
Legs: Allagan Trousers of Aiming
Boots: Allagan Sollerets of Aiming

Neck: Allagan Choker of Aiming
Ear: Hero's Earrings of Aiming
Wrist: Inferno Bangle of Aiming
Ring: Vortex Ring of Aiming
Ring: Hero's Ring of Aiming
Food: HQ Deviled Eggs
Race: Plainsfolk Lalafell

I have 500 Dex, 483 ACC, 556 Crit, 244 Det, 359 SS.

By using the allagan pants instead of the bards pants you lose 17 det and 10 crit.
However the extra acc you gain allows you to use the EXMode Acc (instead of the allagan ring/ hero's bangle)giving you 11 det and 22 crit.
So basically its +6 det and +22 SS with Bard's tights vs +12 crit with allagan pants.

Now this is promising, and a much better reason to use Allagan pants!

**Kelenae** · 2013-12-16 16:12

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587 this is what i'm going with

**Katlan** · 2013-12-16 16:56

What are stats on vortex ring of aiming and inferno wrists ?

**Seravi Edalborez** · 2013-12-16 16:58

Vortex: DEX 13, crit 11, speed 16
Inferno: DEX 13, crit 11, det 11

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 17:13

Originally Posted by Kelenae

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587 this is what i'm going with

I tweaked yours slightly: http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587

Switched Bard Chapeau to Allagan Visor and Tremor Earring to Hero's Earring. Nets +10 crit, +1 accuracy, -8 determination. Seems like 8 determination might be worth more than 10 crit, in which case your version is better. Hard to say without math!

Thing is, that's basically also true of this versus the old BiS build: http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587

You're getting 13 more determination in exchange for 15 crit and 11 skill speed. Yes, you also get 7 more accuracy but with deviled eggs you were going to cap your accuracy with only 465 from gear anyway.

**Judai** · 2013-12-16 19:19

BIS is BIfuckingS, not, easier to obtain and kinda pretty much BIS btw. There is ZERO logic behind arguing a list with 1 T5 drop means it is BIS over one with 2 T5 drops. All three of my lists have 2 T5 drops anyways.

This update definately gives us some nice new options though and now I don't know wtf to do with my 1000 myth after patch.(was looking at Hero's Earring+Wrists or Bow+1)

imo these are the 3 optimal set-ups I have found so far; (but who knows)

Allagan Bow Build

Spoiler: show

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...5069.558412218

vs

Elfin Bow Balanced Build

Spoiler: show

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?2884102...5069.558412218

vs

Elfin Bow Crit Build

Spoiler: show

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?2884102...5069.558412218

1 vs 2
1WD, 1Dex, 23 Skill Speed, 4Vit (1acc under cap?)
vs
3Acc, 18Crit, 1Det

1 vs 3
1WD, 3Dex, 7Det, 39 Skill Speed, 4Vit (1acc under cap?)
vs
2Acc, 43 Crit

2 vs 3
2Dex, 8Det, 16 Skill Speed
vs
27Crit

**Deadgye** · 2013-12-16 19:38

My point was just that you only want to use Allagan pants if you don't have Allagan bow, which means (to me) that they're not best in slot. Why would you put a temporary item in a BiS list? Allagan bow is an example of a BiS item, regardless of what else you have there's nothing that's better for that slot. I'm not saying there are no situations in which you would want to use Allagan pants, but I am saying that they're not your destination.

Understood then. That's why I later corrected myself by saying I guess I shouldn't have said Best in Slot list, because a Best In Slot list by it's proper definition is completely and utterly stupid and pointless. Who cares what item increases your damage the most in a single slot when using a set created by all of those items gives you a set that is worse than those two sets I listed.

Weapon base damage and main stat are still far and away the biggest factors in any gear piece and nobody has actually done the math to figure out how much crit you need in order to get enough additional Rivers of Blood procs to make up for it. Given how little % wise each crit point adds to your crit rate I'm betting that no amount of crit currently available can make up for losing base damage and several points in your main stat.

Umm... the (mostly correct but not exact) math is there for raw damage increases from crit, so you can most definitely quantify that.

Originally Posted by Lokim

Sorry, I didn't address the portion of my comment about both dropping from T5.

My point there was that the Elfin bow is clearly a progression item - it's something you want to help you clear T5 so that you can get the Allagan bow, which is the actual best in slot weapon at this time. Figuring out if you can hit the T5 accuracy cap without Allagan pants is way more important than with them because - if you're already killing Twintania - you're already handling the hardest content the game has to offer so who really cares if you can juggle some items around to temporarily have slightly better stats for content you're already clearing?

Your goal is Allagan bow, you need to kill Twintania to get it, and Elfin bow can help you do that but only if you can get enough additional accuracy. Using an item you get by killing Twintania to help you get enough accuracy to use Elfin bow so you can kill Twintania doesn't seem super useful and it's definitely not "best in slot."

This is what I was saying holds zero logic. This game isn't "higher ilvl is always undeniably better". Elfin bow isn't only a progression item when a set using it rivals a set using the allagan bow. You're making a metric shit ton of assumptions that don't hold any water to create the basis for what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Mattaru

Spoiler: show

Your stat totals don't check out correctly. That's only 470 accuracy as far as I can tell for example.

Originally Posted by Kelenae

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587 this is what i'm going with

Originally Posted by Lokim

I tweaked yours slightly: http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587

Both those sets aren't as far ahead of set1 as the set2 I posted, if I plugged in everything correctly. And therefore also aren't ahead enough to declare them undeniably better after bloodletter resets.

This is a prime example why only looking one slot at a time and picking the highest ilvl/dmg/primary stat totals you can get it to declare a "BiS" is silly. It's too tunnel visioned and has been shown multiple times to not give you the best set. Hell that site doesn't even list the Gryphonskin Ring.

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 20:00

Originally Posted by Judai

BIS is BIfuckingS, not, easier to obtain and kinda pretty much BIS btw. There is ZERO logic behind arguing a list with 1 T5 drop means it is BIS over one with 2 T5 drops. All three of my lists have 2 T5 drops anyways.

What? Is that aimed at me? My entire point was that Elfin bow WILL NOT BE BEST IN SLOT. Period, in any build. Unless someone can give some genuinely compelling math that any combination of secondary stats can make up for 1 weapon damage and 2 DEX there's not even any point in ever mentioning an i90 bow in a BiS conversation. The build that Mattaru posted is basically optimal; you could easily argue that the original BiS build from 2.0 is equivalent depending on how much you value determination vs. crit rate.

http://ariyala.com/bard.html?9755176...069.4172697587

Spoiler: show

There's no way any Elfin bow build beats that, which is why I was saying there's not a whole lot of point in talking about it with respect to T5 gear - if you can clear T5 you don't need Elfin bow anyway, so fuck it. Elfin bow builds rely on Allagan pants to work, and if you can get Allagan pants then you're a few weeks away from Allagan bow so who cares?

I'm interested in an upgrade path that lets you skip Zenith bow while you're working your way up to clearing T5 so you can get Allagan bow, which means you can't include Allagan pants to make it work. In my own attempts so far you can make Elfin bow work up until you get Allagan feet, at which point it's impossible to get enough accuracy to cap on T5 without giving up a shitload of DEX.

There are a bunch of situations in which you might want to use Elfin bow for a while depending on what drops you've gotten and what Myth gear you've already purchased but those are always transient - Elfin bow will never be BiS.

**Judai** · 2013-12-16 20:11

Considering WD isn't as big a deal for BRD as it is for other jobs and we are talking about 1WD, it actually is debatable. Also, considering the large amount of new gear and multiple items that could suddenly be BIS items in new builds, who knows.

The 37 Crit and 18DET on Elfin is actually pretty comparable to 1WD and 3Dex, depending on what you use to cover the Acc loss. The larger difference in Auto-attack however, I am not sure about.

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 20:11

Originally Posted by Deadgye

Umm... the (mostly correct but not exact) math is there for raw damage increases from crit, so you can most definitely quantify that

Yeah, the generally accepted conversion is 6-7 main stat per weapon damage and 6-7 secondary stat per main stat. With that basic rule of thumb any Elfin build would have to achieve (6 * MISSING_DEX) + (6 * 6 * MISSING_WEAPON_DMG) secondary stats to be equivalent to an Allagan bow build, and that's assuming all the secondary stats have equal value to us.

At minimum that means 42 additional crit rate + determination assuming all i90 gear. If you start using i70 and i80 gear to hit the accuracy cap then the situation gets worse.

The reason I said "show me some compelling math" is that, for Bard specifically, the rule of thumb conversion is a little more complex. As we all know Rivers of Blood means that point for point crit rate is a little more valuable than for other classes, which means 6-7 crit per DEX probably isn't right but it's impossible to quantify that right now.

Rivers of Blood is the only factor that might allow an Elfin bow build to compete with an Allagan bow build but since we don't have the math to figure that our right now I'm going to go with the most apples to apples comparison and say that Allagan bow is BiS.

**Lokim** · 2013-12-16 20:18

Originally Posted by Judai

Considering WD isn't as big a deal for BRD as it is for other jobs and we are talking about 1WD, it actually is debatable.

That's not true though - weapon damage is just as important for bard as it is for the other jobs, it's just that our weapon upgrades don't give us very much extra weapon damage. That's why we usually delay Zenith bow - because it only gives 1 WD, not because WD isn't important to us. Weapon damage still trumps every other stat and you need a lot of secondary stats (or even main stats) to make up for losing it.

Originally Posted by Judai

The larger difference in Auto-attack however, I am not sure about.

That's an even better point! You're not only giving up WD and main stat but you're also giving up auto-attack damage. Considering how important Barrage is for us that seems like the final nail in the coffin given the advantages that Allagan bow already has. I didn't even think of that.

**Deadgye** · 2013-12-16 20:21

There's no way any Elfin bow build beats that, which is why I was saying there's not a whole lot of point in talking about it with respect to T5 gear - if you can clear T5 you don't need Elfin bow anyway, so fuck it. Elfin bow builds rely on Allagan pants to work, and if you can get Allagan pants then you're a few weeks away from Allagan bow so who cares?

According to valk: -1.12 WS Absolute Increase, -19.59 AA Absolute Increase going from that set to the set1 I listed before. With a difference of 41 critical hit rate.

I'm positive a difference of 41 critical hit rate can make up that WS Absolute difference. The AA is the only reason I've said both sets are in the running. Also don't forget that a higher critical rate increases the probability of a higher spike damage potential. There's so many factors in play here, that nearly everybody is not factoring in, that declaring one of those drastically different sets better than the other is just pants on head retarded. It's like giving someone a introductory college physics formula for acceleration and then using it to compare two airplanes. If you declare one of them as better than the other as a point of fact, you just look stupid to the people who knows the formula isn't complete.

FFS, why do you think I provided two sets instead of one.

**Deadgye** · 2013-12-16 20:44

This warrants a new post: That absolute auto attack damage difference is misleading, and I forgot that this was so. The delay on the Elfin bow is significantly lower and thus you'll be auto attacking more. The sets are now a lot closer than I previously thought.

**Judai** · 2013-12-16 21:00

Originally Posted by Deadgye

This warrants a new post: That absolute auto attack damage difference is misleading, and I forgot that this was so. The delay on the Elfin bow is significantly lower and thus you'll be auto attacking more. The sets are now a lot closer than I previously thought.

Weird, I thought they were the same when I looked at delay, that closes the gap again. Have to see if you get extra attacks from Barrage as well when deciding which is better.

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