Bard Detail

[Judai]

Monk abilities generally use less TP (several 50 TP abilities) comparatively to BRD (60-80) - iirc on a dummy I can go about 4 minutes (with 2xinvigorate) before running out of TP. How long does it take a bard to run dry?

I know I can go 5m(4:97) before running out on a dummy but when you start adding additional mobs, like Dreads, BRD is going to lose TP even faster as those 80tp dots on 2 mobs at once is a killer. So BRD should run out of TP faster then MNK with multiple mobs to dot.

[Spider-Dan]

In a situation where you have 1 add (e.g. T6, T8) and DoTs are already up on the boss, if the add will live for less than 3 GCDs (after DoT application) then putting any DoT on it is less DPS than just spamming Heavy Shot.

Again, the question is easy to answer if BRD and MNK are both out of TP. I am asking at which point it is worth singing Paeon just for MNK when you could sing Requiem for both casters instead?

[Carraway]

There is probably a way to math it out but I'm too lazy for that. Instead, I would just Foe to 0 MP, BV Paeon at ~1k MP, then decide whether to Foe/Paeon depending on the remaining HP of the boss vs MP vs projected TP expenditure. Even without multidotting, a BRD still expends roughly the same amount of TP/time as a MNK. I assume that on farm content your healers are also contributing magical damage.

[Judai]

In a situation where you have 1 add (e.g. T6, T8) and DoTs are already up on the boss, if the add will live for less than 3 GCDs (after DoT application) then putting any DoT on it is less DPS than just spamming Heavy Shot.

Again, the question is easy to answer if BRD and MNK are both out of TP. I am asking at which point it is worth singing Paeon just for MNK when you could sing Requiem for both casters instead?

I don't think it really matters enough for me to try and math that out. The point though, was that it's never paeon for 1 person, it's paeon for everyone because if a MNK is running out, a BRD, WAR and anyone else is getting pretty dry as well. I think the best way to test is to hit a dummy and watch how much your DPS drops when you run out of TP. It also depends on how long people are going to be out of TP. On T8, everyone is going to be dry and shitting it up for like half the fight if you don't paeon.

and I can't think of any worthwhile adds, on anything worth thinking about, that die in 3 GCDs or less. (bulbs being only thing I can think of that I don't dot in coil)

If it's so easy to answer though, answer it yourself and tell us.

[Deadgye]

The only practical situation I can think of where a monk would be needing on tp whereas the brd isn't is if the mnk died and got raised? And in that case he's suffering a damage penalty, so requiem would probably result in more damage?

[StUfF]

The only practical situation I can think of where a monk would be needing on tp whereas the brd isn't is if the mnk died and got raised? And in that case he's suffering a damage penalty, so requiem would probably result in more damage?

I can't really think of a situation where Paeon just for a single MNK would be a good idea, even given lower estimates of 60% damage output while TP starved the fact is you only need enough TP till the next invigorate (or the next x Invigorates - extra TP cannot be converted to damage efficiently) and that singing more Paeon than is needed (impossible to time correctly) significantly reduces your raid dps (oppurtunity cost vs Foe and damage reduction on BRD).

In any fight where the MNK is going to sit at empty for long amounts of time - means that other classes will be needing Paeon as well (T8). Other fights that don't have 100% boss uptime, the duration of TP starvation is rarely long enough for Paeon to be worth it.

[Spider-Dan]

and I can't think of any worthwhile adds, on anything worth thinking about, that die in 3 GCDs or less. (bulbs being only thing I can think of that I don't dot in coil)

Bulbs were what I was referencing for T6, and T8 dreads die right around my third GCD in my group.

I can't really think of a situation where Paeon just for a single MNK would be a good idea, even given lower estimates of 60% damage output while TP starved the fact is you only need enough TP till the next invigorate (or the next x Invigorates - extra TP cannot be converted to damage efficiently) and that singing more Paeon than is needed (impossible to time correctly) significantly reduces your raid dps (oppurtunity cost vs Foe and damage reduction on BRD).

In any fight where the MNK is going to sit at empty for long amounts of time - means that other classes will be needing Paeon as well (T8). Other fights that don't have 100% boss uptime, the duration of TP starvation is rarely long enough for Paeon to be worth it.

Thanks, this is approximately in line with what I was thinking.

[Carraway]

Do you use 5 DPS on T8? I just counted my GCDs from my last recorded T8 farm kill and it was 8.

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, we use BRD MNK DRG BLM SMN.

[Detzu]

So why do you want to prioritize requiem over paon? Is your MNK the only one who runs out of tp?

[Elcura]

Could be the MNK is the only one actually doing their job.

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, MNK is the only one that runs out of TP (note: WAR needs TP for second dread in T8, so there is a Paeon after first Brainjack). DRG only comes to T8, and I guess some are saying that PLD and WAR should also be running out of TP every time MNK is, but they are not.

[Niiro]

If your DRG isn't running out of TP they're doing something wrong.

I've gone PLD to the fight a few times and I can say that they certainly can run into some TP issues (noct shield so lowest # of Swipe procs), I can't imagine WAR running out tho unless they spam Tomahawks unnecessarily on the dread or something.

Tanks (WAR much more so than PLD) go through TP slower than DPS and every Brainjack is a significant amount of TP recovered.

[Spider-Dan]

If you're talking about T8, I already sing one ~1000MP Paeon during it.

I believe WAR opens with a few Unchained Overpowers to secure early hate before switching to 123.

[Niiro]

Yes, talking about T8.

Paeon shouldn't be needed in any other turn except maybe 7 if you never ever get Voice/Screech, but even then 7 is 99% not fucking up the mechanics and 1% DPS check.

[Spider-Dan]

TBH, the question wasn't really about strategy for specific current events that we already have on farm status.

The question was more about whether Paeon is worth it if only one physical DD needs it and you have two casters. It could be due to RNG on voices/shrieks, or RNG on some other future mechanic, or any other reason. My estimation was that the physical DD that is out-of-TP would have to be destroying both casters in order for Paeon to be worth it over Requiem.

[Taint]

If you're talking about T8, I already sing one ~1000MP Paeon during it.

I believe WAR opens with a few Unchained Overpowers to secure early hate before switching to 123.

Unchained alone is enough to secure hate with 1,2,3ing. Overpower is good for pulling the dreads however. I never have TP problems on WAR but PLD I run out of TP around the time of brainjacks. We also Paeon about the same time so I'm near full TP again after the 2nd Brainjack.

[Deadgye]

<3 tanks who run backwards while brainjack is being cast so I take less damage while tanking the tank and have that extra second or two to get off paeon(or another song) instead of being interrupted if I fucked up my timing.

[Detzu]

Yes, MNK is the only one that runs out of TP (note: WAR needs TP for second dread in T8, so there is a Paeon after first Brainjack). DRG only comes to T8, and I guess some are saying that PLD and WAR should also be running out of TP every time MNK is, but they are not.

Sorry to say this but it either means your MNK isn't using invigorate or both BRD and DRG aren't doing their job. In that case go with two BRDs and leave the DRG out.

[Spider-Dan]

So for content that we can already clear, if I'm trying to figure out if it's more effective to sing Paeon or Requiem, I should... just start replacing people instead?