FFXIV Random Complaint Thread: Look forward to it

[Jaybar]

15 Minute lockout for losing a Guildhest? What the fuck is that?

[Tyrath]

It's already become quite apparent that the PS3 is holding the game back, I'm sure it increases development time by a shitton as well.

Would've thought they would have learned from PS2 limitations. But then again, wouldn't be SE if they did.

[Corrderio]

CT is for casuals and Coil is for hardcores.

This will be interesting. Maybe it's my memories of Dynamis/Sky/etc. but 24 man events don't really scream "casual" to me.

[Fojoop]

This will be interesting. Maybe it's my memories of Dynamis/Sky/etc. but 24 man events don't really scream "casual" to me.

More people means higher chance of being carried and less chance your individual skill or lack of skill matters. The hardest content should always require the least amount of people playing at 100%. Zerg events are the definition of casual, to me. It's always been baffling why MMO devs thought more players should equal harder content or the hardest content, when the complete opposite is true.

[Ksandra]

then why did he pick a model with proven history to fail and go F2p, instead of making it a niche game like FFXI that survived nearly a decade with 500k subs, and was their most profitable FF game ever?

People really gotta get their heads out of this mentality. FFXI wasn't really a niche game, it was an EQ clone. As well, if you look at it, pretty much every MMO that predated WoW (except like SWG) is still going and still p2p (UO is even still p2p). To make FFXI seem somehow unique is ignoring that it really comes down to having a dedicated userbase in an unsaturated market before WoW came out.

Since then, it has been a tranwreck in trying to get games that were made after WoW to survive. Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that a lot of people keep trying to make these failed models, with that said I don't think the FFXI model is what would make a game survive "better" either. I honestly don't think any model would have an easy time without having unlimited money.

I've said it before. Companies treated MMOs like they treat offline games, making a new one every year. And we haven't even really gotten to finding the "successful MMO" life cycle yet. People are itching for something new, but that something new doesn't mean going backwards to the originals. And I don't think companies have the technology to get to the real something new yet.

[Carth]

What confuses me the most about Yoshi-P is that he said the game was designed to be profitable with only 500k subs and would shut the servers down before going f2p, then why did he pick a model with proven history to fail and go F2p, instead of making it a niche game like FFXI that survived nearly a decade with 500k subs, and was their most profitable FF game ever?

Well for all intents and purposes, the WoW model is the safest model to go for. If you use the basics of the model and twist it into something unique, then the model can work. XIV did this and it definitely works. The problem is their follow-up, or lack thereof.

FFXI isn't a bad game by any means, but it's a very old model that isn't appealing in today's market. Even Yoshida said leveling has to be fast-paced because that's what is currently mainstream.

[Fojoop]

I never said they should've copied the FFXI model, I said they should've made another niche game. Or tried to make a completely unique experience you can't get anywhere else, much like guild wars 2 did. Guild wars 2 is highly successful, despite what most people say, and is earning NCsoft the most money out of the games they own as well as more users logging in weekly every content patch.

Guild wars 2 added an open world dungeon that's impossible solo and requires you to team up, and the feedback from it has been highlypositive. Pretty much no one complaining or disliking it, everyone praising it. This is the type of content people have been asking for in a MMO for the better part of this decade, and when a dev finally releases it everyone loves it to death.

If MMO devs would actually listen to the feedback on the forums in the very early months of the game - the people who ask for more open world content, a challenging world with danger around every corner, risk of death in the open world, emphasis on grouping up, emphasis on party play, less instancing, longer leveling process, not extremely grindy like FFXI but a nice middle ground between "FFXI" and "FF14",a game that starts at level1 instead of the level cap, non-linear leveling, all content at the level cap not being inside of instanced and split 50/50 between open world/instances, no ilvl tier progression system, and a few other things. I'm confident if a MMO released today with these things in mind, focusing on these things, and keeping a fluid combat system, great classes, modern approach to all these things, as well as a good UI, it would be highly successful and make a good amount of money.

There's a player base who wants this type of game, a very huge one, and they've been hopping from MMO to MMO looking for this experience, none have ever given it to them, someone needs to try at least once.

[Ksandra]

Well for all intents and purposes, the WoW model is the safest model to go for. If you use the basics of the model and twist it into something unique, then the model can work. XIV did this and it definitely works. The problem is their follow-up, or lack thereof.

This is also a really good assessment. Oddly enough, a lot of the things that people complain about FFXIV would be fixed if they copied WoW (ex. being able to repeat raids, mailing to alts, unlimited ah space, etc)

I respect a lot of what FFXI was/is, but there is zero doubt in my mind that if it was released today, even with 14's graphics, it wouldn't last 6 months before going f2p.

[Ksandra]

I never said they should've copied the FFXI model, I said they should've made another niche game. Or tried to make a completely unique experience you can't get anywhere else

They tried that in 1.0 and failed (not just because of the niche mind you, but there were a lot of complaints related to it, aka skill points, so you can't really be surprised they went the safer route).

If MMO devs would actually listen to the feedback on the forums in the very early months of the game - the people who ask for more open world content, a challenging world with danger around every corner, risk of death in the open world, emphasis on grouping up, emphasis on party play, less instancing, longer leveling process, not extremely grindy like FFXI but a nice middle ground between "FFXI" and "FF14", and a few other things. I'm confident if a MMO released today with these things in mind, focusing on these things, and keeping a fluid combat system, great classes, modern approach to all these things, as well as a good UI, it would be highly successful and make a good amount of money.

Outside of the instancing part, that's still basically WoW in a nutshell, so still doesn't make for a niche game.

[Corrderio]

More people means higher chance of being carried and less chance your individual skill or lack of skill matters. The hardest content should always require the least amount of people playing at 100%. Zerg events are the definition of casual, to me. It's always been baffling why MMO devs thought more players should equal harder content or the hardest content, when the complete opposite is true.

We'll see. ALl I know is 24 can be pretty annoying with people that are clueless.

[Lucavi]

We'll see. ALl I know is 24 can be pretty annoying with people that are clueless.

Blizzard actually answered that question. They explained that it was harder to design smaller raids with extremely difficult mechanics because catering to a smaller group often meant removing mechanics that certain classes had to be there to overcome, since smaller groups may not have every class represented in the raid. Thus, why hard modes in WoW incorporated more mechanics. It was nearly impossible for a 24-man group to not have a certain class, and, by that point, if they weren't bringing every class, shame on them. Contrast that with a 10-man group that could very reasonably not have had every class on-hand, and with no class switching, you can at least somewhat understand Blizzard's mindset there.

[Carth]

I respect a lot of what FFXI was/is, but there is zero doubt in my mind that if it was released today, even with 14's graphics, it wouldn't last 6 months before going f2p.

XIV v1.20+ was basically FFXI-2. IMO, if v1.23 was 1.0 at launch, it probably would've survived under a p2p model as long as the content kept rolling in.

[Kuishen]

I've said it before. Companies treated MMOs like they treat offline games, making a new one every year. And we haven't even really gotten to finding the "successful MMO" life cycle yet. People are itching for something new, but that something new doesn't mean going backwards to the originals. And I don't think companies have the technology to get to the real something new yet.

Well that's the main problem, they're treating it like a single player game where the leveling is actual content. Leveling in MMOs is not content period, especially with the way this game currently is. I understand that they put a lot of hard work into the pre-50 dungeons and the main story or whatever, but after the first time you cannot count that as content in an MMO where the main point is progressing your character. If companies took the time to release an MMO with a large chunk of endgame content, they would do so much better for a number of reasons. For one people are willing to overlook minor stuff when there is a variety of it to do. You'll also keep subscribers longer than you would with bullshit time gates. It's win-win in the long run for the company. The only reason it hasn't happened yet is because nobody is willing to front the money to make a game that large on release or they spend the money on worthless garbage (TOR, voice-acting and advertising), but when it happens it'll be a game-changer.

If TOR had spent even 10% of the money they did on the voice-acting and advertising campaign, on solidifying the end-game content then that game probably wouldn't have needed to go F2P as quickly as it did, or at all.

You gotta spend big money (in the right way) to make big money. EA was the first to spend big money on an MMO, they just spent it on the wrong stuff. They won't be the last, but somebody needs to have the balls to step up the plate again before it'll happen. If they do it right then they'll absolutely demolish the competition.

[Achitophel]

Leveling in MMOs is not content period

That's the problem. Why do people accept this? Leveling gear is content, somehow, but leveling a character isn't? This mindset is one of the primary issues.

[Kelenae]

That's the problem. Why do people accept this? Leveling gear is content, somehow, but leveling a character isn't? This mindset is one of the primary issues.

Ya thats the problem. They should just come out with mmo's where you start at end game already.

(I dont post much in this thread very much because its a Echo chamber. But, I learned to let go of FFXI. I know there is not going to be a mmo that is not going match what i experienced at the time i played it. People now wont be able to appreciate it for what it was. ADD generation never appreciates anything that isn't instant gratification because they have no patents for it. But now i'm 30. Would i want to play FFXI again? No. I really dont wanna spend those hardcore hours i spent on that game ever again. But man, when i got that drop that i was camping for hour, it felt good. I dont wanna do that again. I feel like it would kill me lol)

[Kachiko]

I've said it before. Companies treated MMOs like they treat offline games, making a new one every year. And we haven't even really gotten to finding the "successful MMO" life cycle yet. People are itching for something new, but that something new doesn't mean going backwards to the originals. And I don't think companies have the technology to get to the real something new yet.

This is basically what is happening, but the underlying problem of current gen gamers and old school grown up archetypes play into the larger problem. Right now, companies pick the WoW model type, may or may not throw their own ideas at it, then reap enough in the initial blitz to make a sizable profit and keep it going for the few fanboy player base.

Well for all intents and purposes, the WoW model is the safest model to go for. If you use the basics of the model and twist it into something unique, then the model can work. XIV did this and it definitely works. The problem is their follow-up, or lack thereof..

This model model may be the safest, but it won't break the mold and will just keep us on the MMO Treadmill, jumping ship when the next thing hits us.

You gotta spend big money (in the right way) to make big money. EA was the first to spend big money on an MMO, they just spent it on the wrong stuff. They won't be the last, but somebody needs to have the balls to step up the plate again before it'll happen. If they do it right then they'll absolutely demolish the competition.

Penny Arcade made a comic about this, and it's something I picked up on around the same time. It was their The Ultimatrix comic (comic borked at time of posting), which was basically combine the graphics/action combat of TERA, the interactive world events of GW2, and the storytelling of SW:TOR. The game that is able to budget and hit those three points is likely to be the next standard of the MMO; unfortunately, we just haven't seen that yet.

[Sephiroth]

At this point (4 months for 2.1?) SE should put the next tier of gear into CT and fix the 80 problem with the new/hard mode dungeons they're adding. But they won't.

[Taru Tacos]

That's the problem. Why do people accept this? Leveling gear is content, somehow, but leveling a character isn't? This mindset is one of the primary issues.

On an individual player basis, mmos aren't exactly known for their wildly complex gameplay at the max level as it is. Are you thinking everyone is crazy for not wanting to spend more time during the part of the game when you're even more limited in abilities, gearing options, build options, fight mechanics, and when there's no real attempt at balance and so forth? I get that that's something that would appeal to some people but I don't think you're bothering to consider what appeals to others if you think people complaining about how the endgame content turned out would be loving the game so much more if they had tripled the time everyone had to spend using a rotation of three abilities in all situations while fighting enemies that make them take a step to the left or right every once in a while at worst and still had the same endgame content waiting for them at cap. Which mmos actually had real leveling content by the way? I didn't play mmos prior to FFXI but I hope people aren't thinking that game's leveling was "content" in any way more than FFXIV's or calling FFXI niche.



Just speaking in general but acting like the complaints about FFXIV's endgame is an indictment of a game deviating from ye olde grinding is just stupid; an example of an idea implemented with a fair amount of flaws doesn't render the idea itself terrible. It's the same shit with people who want absolutely no open world content in any game just because kings were a cluterfuck. Might as well have people point out that odin and behemoth are a technical mess and generally unrewarding and then conclude that all open world content is terrible and anyone who ever suggested it is an idiot. People seem to be complaining because Yoshida said the game starts at the cap and then the actual cap content felt a little anemic and poorly tuned. I'm sure it looked great on paper but things like two of their level 50 dungeons, 8 man and filled with bosses no less, being for the story and having two of the three HM primals being undertuned as hell really fucked things up. Releasing coil and CT out of order didn't help either.

[Sylvrdragon]

I got Allagan Circlet of Casting last night for my BLM...

The reason that is a complaint is because BLM is my third job, and was not previously a contender for becoming my main. Both my WHM and my PLD have +1 Relics (I was very indecisive on which of those 2 were going to be my main, and so I split my Myth like an idiot), which means that I now have ilvl90 split among 3 fucking jobs. My BLM is regular relic. So now I have to get some body piece to wear on BLM so I can put this to use, and I'm broke as fuck, and I'm not willing to throw any Myth at the job right now since I'm already spread too thin. I had intended to keep the class at DL+Relic until we saw what 2.1 is going to have, and see whether it allows us to gear up multiple jobs or not. Now I pretty much have to progress the job.

I wanted to pass on the damn thing, but the only other person who even had a casting job leveled was the SCH, who doesn't intend to play much SMN, and will probably rarely get off of healing duty anyway. Oh well... maybe I'll get the Tunic from Turn2 and the staff from Turn5 (lol)

[Taruranto]

This will be interesting. Maybe it's my memories of Dynamis/Sky/etc. but 24 man events don't really scream "casual" to me.

If 8 man guildhest are of any indication, my guess is CT will be like an instanced version of a FATE.