FFXIV Random Complaint Thread: Look forward to it

[Deadgye]

Hardly. But you XI guys always think like this.

Like I've said in the past, you could easily include some horizontal gear progression by making the gear not incredibly boring and 100% vertical. The whole concept of Best in Slot is terrible and pigeonholes equipment so hard that nothighestilvl is useless and therefore the events they come from are useless. Imagine if CT gear was infused with aetheryte and gave you a [slightly randomized/static] damage boost or damage mitigation against primals. [High rolls/That] could make the pieces situationally better than coil gear for a slot or three when doing primals. It could even end up being better for normal primal fights and not as good for extreme primal fights, or vice versa. And then you'd have a worthwhile reason to run CT even if you were fully decked out in coil gear.

The people who played XI and complain about the horribly boring itemization don't have stockholm syndrome from XI. If anything it's you people, who apparently can't imagine or accept anything other then pure boring 100% vertical gear, that are suffering from it.

If you can't roll out new content fast enough, then you have to make the itemization system interesting enough that old or lower level content stays interesting and worthwhile. There are other methods as well, like what they're doing with the random dungeon a day incentive thing. But loot is the driving force behind everything; Having a shitty foundation to build off of will only result in more and more problems that need to be patched up, just like lower level dungeons.

Spoiler: show

Playing Path of Exile reminded me how enticing fun and interesting itemization can make a game. How sweet would it be if there existed equipment that had properties like "Reduced Paeon mp cost", "Increased Berserk Duration", "Increased Ballad mp cost", "Removes invincibility from holmgang, effect lasts twice sa long", "Increased Flare Damage, Minimum MP required +250", etc. There would be so many interesting combinations to try out. Some equipment would suck, some equipment would have a niche, some equipment would be awesome.

[Lucavi]

I know I, for one, can't wait to return to the days of Adaberk being tops for 6 years. That'd be so cool in 2013! It'd be, like, so totally awesome to have an item that exists today in ARR still be tops in 2019!

Fucking idiots.

[Elcura]

If XI is your main (or only) point of reference it *is* a very difficult mental block to get over.

Back in the Zilart/CoP days, how much BiS gear per week could an entire LS reasonably expect to get in a week? A handful from 2 Dynamis runs, the *chance* at 1 or 2 pieces from an HNM and (I don't remember exact drop rates) but maybe 2 pieces from a full run of Sky gods? It could easily take 1-2 years to BiS a character and none of the equipment was made obsolete quickly, nor in bulk.

This didn't really sink in for me in XIV until someone used the phrase "level up your gear". It's meat to be dispensable, and some gear is ment solely to help you get other gear. Easy come, easy go. Each group of 8 can get 6-8 coil drops per week, plus myth pieces (no RNG there) and also as many weapons as you care to spend the time on. Yeah, we desperately need more to do than just that, but the system just can't be compared to XI.

I'll be interested to see how things are handled when they have the first level cap raise. Hopefully all of this will be a bit of a learning experience for SE and they'll improve it as they go.

Gear is just a means to an end. How often you replace it is meaningless because you'll replace everything at some point. Tell me what games where you constantly use equipment you obtained 20 levels/hours ago? The problem isn't with gear, it's with how they're giving it out.

Like I've said in the past, you could easily include some horizontal gear progression by making the gear not incredibly boring and 100% vertical. The whole concept of Best in Slot is terrible and pigeonholes equipment so hard that nothighestilvl is useless and therefore the events they come from are useless. Imagine if CT gear was infused with aetheryte and gave you a [slightly randomized/static] damage boost or damage mitigation against primals. [High rolls/That] could make the pieces situationally better than coil gear for a slot or three when doing primals. It could even end up being better for normal primal fights and not as good for extreme primal fights, or vice versa. And then you'd have a worthwhile reason to run CT even if you were fully decked out in coil gear.

The people who played XI and complain about the horribly boring itemization don't have stockholm syndrome from XI. If anything it's you people, who apparently can't imagine or accept anything other then pure boring 100% vertical gear, that are suffering from it.

If you can't roll out new content fast enough, then you have to make the itemization system interesting enough that old or lower level content stays interesting and worthwhile. There are other methods as well, like what they're doing with the random dungeon a day incentive thing. But loot is the driving force behind everything; Having a shitty foundation to build off of will only result in more and more problems that need to be patched up, just like lower level dungeons.

XI had BiS as well, every game has something that's BiS. XI had like 1000 BiS depending on what you were doing at the time. You had a BiS breathing set, BiS breakfast set, BiS sleeping set, BiS fucking set and BiS taking a dump set. XIV has less of that bullshit in that you need 1000 pieces for 10 different situations. That's what they're trying to avoid, it's amazing how you can't see that horizontal gear progression means you need dozens of pieces for no goddamn reason when we already have a shit load of gear to manage with all our different jobs.

And you think people who dislike XI can't accept horizontal gear (which is just lolworthy because the only thing I'd want from horizontal gear is it to be done nothing like in XI but I digress). On the flipside you people with stockholm syndrome seem to think that anything other than horizontal gear acquisition and having a BiS item for 2 years is horrible. Guess what, people have different tastes and horizontal progression is more suited to those who love grinding. I don't mind working towards something, but I don't want to go 2-4 years without having new equipment to use nor do I want the best equipment marginalized by RNG. Or something rare/hard to obtain is cheapened by shitty RNG. Yuck.

I also don't know why anyone thinks that horizontal gear acquisition somehow makes bad design decisions acceptable. If they had designed shit right in the first place it wouldn't matter what type of gear progression they had.

[Lucavi]

I also don't know why anyone thinks that horizontal gear acquisition somehow makes bad design decisions acceptable. If they had designed shit right in the first place it wouldn't matter what type of gear progression they had.

Because they want to play FFXI-2, because XI was their first love, helped them lose their virginity, was there for them when they moved out of their parents house, sat in the second row for them at their wedding, and totally bought them drinks last year.

I could say that XI's still right there, waiting for them, but now its all nasty and brokey because its not horiziontal gear-progression anymore! Everything's all EZ mode and there's 99 levels and gear takes no effort to get and waaah~!!

[Niiro]

Situational gear just doesn't have a place in this game.

Least of all because there are 19 classes/jobs at this point and many will only share accessories with any others, my armoury chest is already jam packed (not being able to turn in old AK gear for seals because of the stupid fucking UI isn't helping, but still).

When even more classes/jobs are added the issue will only get worse, I really hope they adjust the armoury system to give you more room where it's needed (weapons/tools, visible slots, rings) and less where you don't (off-hand, neck/wrist/ears/waist).

Semi-related:

Why the fuck can't ra/ex gear be converted into materia? I don't need any more fucking seals, no one does.

Also what the fuck are we supposed to do with DL gear and primal weapons? There's literally nothing to do with them when we're done with them. We could even convert them in 1.0, what the fuck happened to that?

[Deadgye]

I don't even know if I should bother interrupting your elephant promises with a legitimate reply. You've got your heads so far up your asses that I think you might seriously need the release.

If you actually want to read my posts before making a reply and have a serious discussion, I'd be glad to reciprocate. Otherwise I'll refrain since I don't want to shit up this thread by encouraging you to continue.

If you'd like to know why your responses brought about the contents of this post, I could probably spare some time in PMs giving an explanation.

[Lucavi]

I suppose we can't convert primal weapons so as to not blow the materia market wide open? I'm not sure about that one.

@Dead: I could'nt care less. SE isn't really taking anyone's advice on this one, so there's no reason for me to try to go into a shitty back and forth relating to XI's lame horizontal obsession. There's little to no chance of any true horizontal progression, not when ARR has already blown the shit out of XI's total subs by crudely mimicking WoW (with the obligatory Japanese screw-ups tossed in).

Have your "argument" with someone who cares. I am not that guy.

[Elcura]

If you actually want to read my posts before making a reply and have a serious discussion.

Nah. I don't need to be further informed of your love for all things terrible.

Why the fuck can't ra/ex gear be converted into materia? I don't need any more fucking seals, no one does.

Also what the fuck are we supposed to do with DL gear and primal weapons? There's literally nothing to do with them when we're done with them. We could even convert them in 1.0, what the fuck happened to that?

Holy shit this. I like that they won't increase the GC rank and give us shit to buy but insist on giving us seals for everything.

[Lucavi]

They also give us a distressingly small amount of bank space, yet insist of loading us up with lots of non-convertable gear. Its like they only remember that this game has multiple classes at the most inconvenient areas.

[Rocl]

I suppose we can't convert primal weapons so as to not blow the materia market wide open? I'm not sure about that one.

Eh, I don't think it would blow the market wide open as only ilvl70 guarantees a T4 and you can only SB ilvl70 in the Coil (and probably CT soon?)

plus if it was anything like 1.0 enjoy your fucking fire materias

[Lucavi]

I agree with you Rocl, just trying to give an "official" SE line of thinking to it.

[Deadgye]

Situational gear just doesn't have a place in this game.

Least of all because there are 19 classes/jobs at this point and many will only share accessories with any others, my armoury chest is already jam packed (not being able to turn in old AK gear for seals because of the stupid fucking UI isn't helping, but still).

It doesn't need to be situational gear. With interesting options there can exist multiple sets of equipment that can't be simplified down to "This set is BiS". This results in giving the player choices where they still only have one piece of equipment per slot per class. There currently exists minor variations of this in ffxiv already. An example being allagan neck/wrist/ring of aiming vs gryphonskin neck/wrist/ring. You can't undeniably say one is better than the other because you can't quantitatively measure the effectiveness of an hp boost mathematically versus a damage increase.

[CrstyCptSteveWitherspoon]

Even though I don't have time for XI anymore and I'm a fan of the horizontal gear progression, I think the larger issue is actually have a character that has access to every job but only can really gear one at a time. As it sits right now I can only do coil and really focus on one job to gear(and never get drops for it) then have a 2nd class to lot on in case anyone has that piece for their main. My myth tokens go to my main. Everything focuses around gearing my one job because of lockouts and caps. If I had lockouts and caps on each job it would be ok. I could rerun the content on a different job and gear it. In XI I would do an event but alllllways have something to do afterwards for the same job or another job. It's not this way in XIV. With any other MMO, after you hit your lockout you can log out and log back in on another class and level or do content on that class.

[matic]

Nah. I don't need to be further informed of your love for all things terrible.

i get why people aren't into horizontal progression in a game like this, and agree (despite your earlier hyperbole re: XI gearsets) that XI went tremendously overboard with gear-swapping, but its weird that you think customization via gear choices is terrible.

[Niiro]

I suppose we can't convert primal weapons so as to not blow the materia market wide open? I'm not sure about that one.

The materia market is pretty shit to begin with.

Letting us convert AK/WP/primal stuff would actually make TIVs more affordable and melding them to ilvl 70 crafted gear wouldn't be such a ridiculous waste of money.

As it is the only ilvl 70 crafted pieces that are truly worthwhile (ie. not completely and immediately invalidated by higher ilvl gear) are jewelery because you can meld VIT to them.

ilvl 70 crafted gear is better than DL sure, but they have the same primary stats which are 90% of what matters. The cost of making crafted gear really worthwhile is pretty enormous when you consider the cost of TIV materia and add in potential losses on forbidden melds.

And then you get the allagan drop a few days later and have nothing to show for it but a T4 Water materia.

[Lucavi]

i get why people aren't into horizontal progression in a game like this, and agree (despite your earlier hyperbole re: XI gearsets) that XI went tremendously overboard with gear-swapping, but its weird that you think customization via gear choices is terrible.

They're bringing that type of customization via gear choice with primal weapons have different "big" stats than relic+1. I'm fine with that (not fine with yet another lockout, but whatever). PVP gear will presumably have some kick-ass stats at the highest level, and we'll see if they'll allow PVP gear to be used for PVE content.

Horizontal progression isn't my major issue: its the discrepency between the hows and wheres when obtaining said ZOMG BEST EVER gear compared to traditional vertical progression methods. Camping a weak-ass mob for a P.charm that lasted you from Vanilla to love torques in CoP is bullshit. Anyone who disagrees is a fucking idiot. I don't want that shit again. Ever. I don't trust the same company that made that to not make it again. I never will. They've done nothing to show that they've grown up from such insipid and ignorant design.

Fix the lack of content and the lockout issues and you'll have lots more gear that shares the same ilvl bracket, allowing for multiple choice in terms of gear slots. They already technically have it with Allagan weap vs. Relic +1 for some classes right now. They have it in Allagan equipment vs. AF+1 right now. The horizontal exists, it simply won't exist in the sense that allagan drops will be BIS for the next 6 years like XI lovers would enjoy. Do your work in 2013 so you don't have to work to advance your character beyond fluff pieces until 2017. That's bullshit.

[Khary]

I personally like getting new shiny gear. Using the same gear for years is boring, but on the flips side having gear last for a longer time also means it's easier to gear your alternative jobs. I don't think there is really a perfect system for everyone, as we all have different play styles/amount of free time to play.

[Achitophel]

Hardly. But you XI guys always think like this.

lol no

Like I've said in the past, you could easily include some horizontal gear progression by making the gear not incredibly boring and 100% vertical. The whole concept of Best in Slot is terrible and pigeonholes equipment so hard that nothighestilvl is useless and therefore the events they come from are useless. Imagine if CT gear was infused with aetheryte and gave you a [slightly randomized/static] damage boost or damage mitigation against primals. [High rolls/That] could make the pieces situationally better than coil gear for a slot or three when doing primals. It could even end up being better for normal primal fights and not as good for extreme primal fights, or vice versa. And then you'd have a worthwhile reason to run CT even if you were fully decked out in coil gear.

The people who played XI and complain about the horribly boring itemization don't have stockholm syndrome from XI. If anything it's you people, who apparently can't imagine or accept anything other then pure boring 100% vertical gear, that are suffering from it.

If you can't roll out new content fast enough, then you have to make the itemization system interesting enough that old or lower level content stays interesting and worthwhile. There are other methods as well, like what they're doing with the random dungeon a day incentive thing. But loot is the driving force behind everything; Having a shitty foundation to build off of will only result in more and more problems that need to be patched up, just like lower level dungeons.

Spoiler: show

Playing Path of Exile reminded me how enticing fun and interesting itemization can make a game. How sweet would it be if there existed equipment that had properties like "Reduced Paeon mp cost", "Increased Berserk Duration", "Increased Ballad mp cost", "Removes invincibility from holmgang, effect lasts twice sa long", "Increased Flare Damage, Minimum MP required +250", etc. There would be so many interesting combinations to try out. Some equipment would suck, some equipment would have a niche, some equipment would be awesome.

This times a billion. We complain about content being tedious (and/or lock outs) not because there isn't a lot of it (although there really isn't, that can be overlooked as the game being four months old), but because there's no reason to do most of it more than a handful of times.

I know I, for one, can't wait to return to the days of Adaberk being tops for 6 years. That'd be so cool in 2013! It'd be, like, so totally awesome to have an item that exists today in ARR still be tops in 2019!

Fucking idiots.

Maybe the fucking idiot would be the guy that thinks anyone is proposing anything should be BiS for 6 years. Can you explain why you think anyone said that? This should be good.

[Lucavi]

Oh, oh, I'll totally do this. If I keep you posting, you'll get banned again, so I'll totally play my role until that happens!

Okay, lets see.. why would anyone propose that something should be BiS for 6 years... um... uhh... Oh! I know!

BECAUSE FINAL FANTASY XI DID IT AND THOSE PEOPLE REALLY LOVED FINAL FANTASY XI!

Your turn, Arch!

[Taru Tacos]

Like I've said in the past, you could easily include some horizontal gear progression by making the gear not incredibly boring and 100% vertical. The whole concept of Best in Slot is terrible and pigeonholes equipment so hard that nothighestilvl is useless and therefore the events they come from are useless. Imagine if CT gear was infused with aetheryte and gave you a [slightly randomized/static] damage boost or damage mitigation against primals. [High rolls/That] could make the pieces situationally better than coil gear for a slot or three when doing primals. It could even end up being better for normal primal fights and not as good for extreme primal fights, or vice versa. And then you'd have a worthwhile reason to run CT even if you were fully decked out in coil gear.

The people who played XI and complain about the horribly boring itemization don't have stockholm syndrome from XI. If anything it's you people, who apparently can't imagine or accept anything other then pure boring 100% vertical gear, that are suffering from it.

If you can't roll out new content fast enough, then you have to make the itemization system interesting enough that old or lower level content stays interesting and worthwhile. There are other methods as well, like what they're doing with the random dungeon a day incentive thing. But loot is the driving force behind everything; Having a shitty foundation to build off of will only result in more and more problems that need to be patched up, just like lower level dungeons.

Don't conflate dull as hell itemization with BiS gear somehow being the devil. FFXIV's gear is pretty boring considering there are no stat/set bonuses and the stats we do have have so little variety in number or amount to allow people to try different set ups.


I can't remember the details of it very well so I'm probably fucking some of how it worked up but I remember liking how things were in wotlk for physical dps classes. It was something like you still had a very clear single BiS set up for each tier but the value of arp changed relative to say str and crit for a warrior a great deal depending on how much arp you actually had access to for hard/soft caps, which could cause large changes in how you valued certain pieces over others regardless of ilevel, as well as how you would gem, enchant, etc while you were chasing BiS. Wasn't any "save this one pair of high rolled wind resist pants to use against garuda only ever!" idiocy but whether or not you had a single item, like an MR or a GT, could drive how you set up the rest of your gear well beyond when they were the highest ilevel gear you could get. The thing is that was a game with a lot more endgame content which dropped a lot more gear which had a lot more stat variety and had build variety to further drive differing stat valuations. FFXIV gives you what, two uncustomizable options at the highest ilevel in each slot that only differ in zero to two secondary stats, when secondary stats are generally well under primary stats in value anyway, that come from either one small raid or running the same single dungeon a few times a week? Then I guess melded jewelry if you're in need of vit. Simplifying it into "It's BiS and vertical gear progression vs horizontal gear progression" is just stupid as hell.


Guess it also bears mentioning that something like that seems like it could get messy to balance. As soon as a hypothetical softcap GT set swings too far out of line with a full set of current gear, even if it has to be str/crit centric, and you're forcing specific some classes to go back to old raids that other classes don't care about anymore for one drop off one boss to remain competitive rather than just giving them options, you've made shit awful again as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe the fucking idiot would be the guy that thinks anyone is proposing anything should be BiS for 6 years. Can you explain why you think anyone said that? This should be good.

Hahaha, oh holy shit, dude. Did the same person who made a post like:

Content takes too long? Sucks.

Content doesn't take long enough? Sucks.

really just try to call someone else out for marginalizing other people's argumemts by putting words in their mouth? Just shut up, you're a fucking joke.