FFXIV Random Complaint Thread: Look forward to it

[Avarice]

If I got asked to MNK tank all the time would that make MNK the better tank?

If only this was XI...

[Grey Jorildyn]

Not taking a WAR is just ridiculous. If you're running two tanks and your FC never asks you to come WAR (general statement here), then they do not understand the value of WAR at all.

[BerenTebogo]

Not taking a WAR is just ridiculous. If you're running two tanks and your FC never asks you to come WAR (general statement here), then they do not understand the value of WAR at all.

This.

[Seravi Edalborez]

It's not like 2 WAR doesn't have its redundancies either. Both want Maim up all the time so it's not like "MT" can just spam Butcher and "OT" can spam the Storm combos.

[Grey Jorildyn]

The redundancy can be managed easily though.

[BerenTebogo]

The redundancy can be managed easily though.

One alternates BB + SP other alternates BB + SE, np.

[Obsidian]

Car analogies are hilarious when neither of the things mentioned are cars.

a·nal·o·gy
a process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.

That's an excellent rebuttal. It was more of a juxtaposition though.

[Hiroishime]

Never again will i trust people with full Mytho gears, a BLM with full mytho gears parsed 50k below me on DRG on Titan. /facepalm

[Raineer]

a·nal·o·gy
a process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.

That's an excellent rebuttal. It was more of a juxtaposition though.

You named two cars. They were both spelled wrong. That was my joke.

[Obsidian]

You'd think I know how to spell Corolla because I built the suspension sub-assemblies for them the last two summers. I do that to Camaro every time. Don't ask me why.

[Don Katsu]

Not taking a WAR is just ridiculous. If you're running two tanks and your FC never asks you to come WAR (general statement here), then they do not understand the value of WAR at all.

This is about PLD+PLD vs WAR+WAR

We know PLD+WAR is better than both of those configurations but Obsidian seems to be the only person that thinks PLD+PLD is the worst combination of the three.

The other thing I pointed out. I just looked through 7 party finders and they wanted these tank jobs

Sargatanas (NA Legacy)
PLD+PLD/WAR
PLD+WAR
PLD+WAR/PLD
PLD/WAR+PLD/WAR

Ridill (JP Legacy)
PLD+PLD/WAR
PLD/WAR+PLD/WAR
PLD/WAR+PLD

This was on two servers... Ridill and Sargatnas. How is it that 5 out of 7 parties want to make sure they get at least one PLD and take a chance that they might get stuck with two of them if it is supposedly the "Worst" combination of tank combinations?

I didn't see a single WAR+PLD/WAR... maybe Obsidian can explain the value of a Warrior because obviously groups don't see the value of some added DPS over better mitigation.

This is very similar to when I see parties looking for WHM+SCH/WHM to ensure they get at least one.

[Raldo]

Because Party Finder groups prefer the path of least resistance, and bad WARs are much worse than bad PLDs.

[Don Katsu]

Because Party Finder groups prefer the path of least resistance, and bad WARs are much worse than bad PLDs.

hmmm... valid point. I'll leave it at that then.

[Obsidian]

If you want an explanation read my previous post, because I'm not keen on repeating myself. Let's not pretend that stigma (deserved or undeserved) doesn't play a role in what the larger community wants. Melee DPS work fine for Ifrit but you still see largely ranged-only in the Party Finder. Bad WARs are worse than bad PLDs.

It's not DPS vs mitigation; WAR is better equipped to handle the damage in Ifrit (and in general) than PLD is.

Foresight and Awareness are both worthless and cross-classable, so we'll exclude those. Bulwark doesn't work on Incinerate and auto-attacks aren't the threat in Ifrit so that's out. Shield Oath and Defiance are roughly equivalent as far as effective HP goes. We're left with Rampart, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground against Inner Beast, Vengeance and Holmgang. Convalescence is cross-classable, two WARs will also have access to two Mantras, which is an EHP advantage for them (the combined duration of both Mantras is longer than the increased duration on Convalescence for both PLDs, and Mantra will hit most of the party to boot).

Storm's Path is very clearly the superior form of mitigation. You want at least one WAR, so I don't see how you can possibly think that no WARs is better than two WARs. Doubling up doesn't matter on Ifrit so that's not a necessary consideration.

Rampart's effective mitigation is 20s/90s * 20% = 4.4%
Sentinel's effective mitigation is 10s/180s * 40% = 2.2%

Inner Beast's effective mitigation is (assuming it takes roughly 20 seconds to hit 5 Wrath stacks) 6/20 * 20% = 6%
Vengeance's effective mitigation is 15s/120s * 30% = 3.75%

So as far as magic damage is concerned, WAR has a 3.15% advantage in effective mitigation. On top of which, Inner Beast will almost always be up for Incinerate, Rampart and Sentinel are significantly less likely to be active. This can be mitigated somewhat by cursory knowledge of the fight but the WAR will still take less damage from Incinerate than the PLD will, never mind that two PLDs will also lack Storm's Path which is another 10% advantage in their favour. They can also heal themselves in a pinch with Thrill of Battle, but that's a fairly minor advantage.

If you're going to cry I didn't include shield blocks, auto-attacks are never the threat and Incinerate is the bulk of the damage in this fight, but shield on its own, assuming Zenith or Allagan, is 35% * 28% = 9.8%. Bulwark is a pathetic 15s/180s * (34% * 160% * 28%) = 1.3%. So shield blocks + Bulwark will swing things ~8% towards PLD. That's still not enough to negate the loss of Storm's Path. Even if you call the 20% reduction in STR from Halone a 10% decrease in physical damage (I have yet to see any testing done on what kind of impact Halone has. If anyone has, please provide it), it's still doing nothing to Inferno Howl/Incinerate/Vulcan Burst (or any of the nail explosions), so at best, you're going to break even with regards to mitigation. WARs are still doing more damage, generating more threat, and buffing the entire party through Mantra and Storm's Path.

I mean, we literally spent the last three pages talking about how the accepted method is not inherently the best method. If you want to keep citing the Party Finder as your best evidence of PLD superiority, I think this conversation is over.

[Don Katsu]

I mean, we literally spent the last three pages talking about how the accepted method is not inherently the best method. If you want to keep citing the Party Finder as your best evidence of PLD superiority, I think this conversation is over.

I think since the launch of 2.1 you kept going on about how WAR was effectively replacing PLD as the tank of choice. When the reality is that has far from happened. Congratulations WAR "might" be better than PLD at Ifrit because that's the only primal right? Oh no wait there are two others and turns 1-5.

And ignoring auto-attacks btw is a horrible argument when those add on to the damage you're already taking.

The reason I bring up party finder is because it's simple. You're more likely to have success with two PLDs over two WARs. If your group does Ifrit with WAR+WAR instead of any other tanking combination, then good for you. Enjoy making things harder for yourself when shit should be easy.

[AidenCarby]

Pls no more allagan spears :/

[lilbubbles]

When mitigation really matters, or when most tanks die during ifrit, is during the final nails die leading into the big nail. Paladins can mitigate 100% of that damage.

[Obsidian]

I think since the launch of 2.1 you kept going on about how WAR was effectively replacing PLD as the tank of choice. When the reality is that has far from happened. Congratulations WAR "might" be better than PLD at Ifrit because that's the only primal right? Oh no wait there are two others and turns 1-5.

And ignoring auto-attacks btw is a horrible argument when those add on to the damage you're already taking.

The reason I bring up party finder is because it's simple. You're more likely to have success with two PLDs over two WARs. If your group does Ifrit with WAR+WAR instead of any other tanking combination, then good for you enjoy making things harder for yourself when shit should be easy.

Whether or not people use something has no bearing on whether or not it's more effective and/or efficient.

You can keep trying to abstract my argument, but I explicitly stated that Ifrit was the focus. Anywhere magic damage is prevalent is a situation where WAR is inarguably better equipped to absorb the damage. Anywhere damage spikes are frequent and predictable is a situation WAR will be better equipped to handle the damage. Anywhere DPS is a concern is a situation WAR will be better. Anywhere incoming damage isn't a concern is somewhere WAR will be more effective (because you'll be done faster). Any time adds are prevalent is a situation WAR is going to be better.

Yes, I do think that generally speaking, WAR is better at most content than PLD (deja vu?). Turn 1? WAR is certainly more effective as far as time efficiency goes. Turn 2 WAR is inarguably better unless your BRDs are too bad to silence. Turn 4, WAR is more effective again in terms of time efficiency and it's entirely reasonable to tank both Dreadnaughts on WAR so why bother with PLD? Turn 5, WAR is better equipped to deal with Death Sentence than PLD is. Garuda and Titan are both situations where you probably want one PLD because the spike damage is infrequent, but both are still completely doable with two WARs.

Paladin has no synergy with Paladin. Paladin has excellent synergy with Warrior. Warrior has excellent synergy with Paladin, but it also has excellent synergy with Warrior. It's not difficult to see how eight times out of ten, two WARs will work better than two PLDs. You keep saying I'm making things harder, but the entire point (that you've missed or, more preferably, ignored three times now) is that it is not harder. It is, in my opinion, easier in varying degrees of significance.

Mobs don't auto-attack while using abilities. Ifrit spams abilities. Auto-attack damage from the fight is not enough to swing things in Paladin's favour as highlighted above.

Edit: Mitigating the large nail's explosion is largely irrelevant. There's plenty of time to be healed afterwards. The better use of Hallowed Ground is for one of the triple Incinerates. WAR can just Holmgang the explosion anyway if it's going to kill them. Odds are if that's the case you're about to wipe to Hellfire anyway.

[Don Katsu]

It is, in my opinion, easier in varying degrees of significance.

That's why I said. "No, but you're entitled to your opinion". We didn't need to drag this discussion any further but you felt that was necessary to get some point across that I don't agree with you (and still do not agree with you) on.

You were already making these claims about WAR before it would have been possible to do any form of extensive testing. I'm not going to sit here and try to change your mind.

[Obsidian]

But it's also my opinion that your opinion is a mostly uneducated one, and by engaging in discussion I was hoping that you (or anybody else) would provide some information or perspective that I had not already considered. Unfortunately, you seem to have ignored most of what I've written (save for one or two sentences from every post that you use to create a logical fallacy) in favour of continued ignorance or the wilful inarticulation of your own position.